[71 T/A]

My car 60 fts at 1.75-1.85. I have no traction aids except the 28 x 10.5 slicks on the 69 GTO. The carb's jet and metering rod settings are stock as the plugs are burning clean and I'm happy with the quick starting, good street manners, decent idle and excellent acceleration. There's no bogging off the line. I'm using 3.55 gears and thought about changing to 3.73s.

The converter is a bit tight. It's B & M's Holeshot 2000. I know, not great but at $140, it was cheap and better than stock. The 60 foots probably would improve with the Continental 10" everyone raves about but traction could then become a problem and I don't have room for bigger slicks.

When I spoke to Nunzi about the carb, he actually thought my converter was good enough. Go figure. Then again, his 74 455 T/A with 11:1 and Ram Air II heads has run 11.60s with a 2300 stall L-88 Vette converter and 245/255 cam. My cam's a 236/242 hydraulic roller and I'm not going bigger than that.

[Ken K]

71 T/A, I am curious what might happen if you used Quadrajet secondary air flaps from a Pontiac carb on a Edelbrock Quadrajet. I assume the Edelbrock carb design is from a Quadrajet set up for a Chevy, the reason I say this is the fuel inlet is on the side and it does not have the rectangler slots in the secondary air flaps.

[GTO Karl]

71 T/A:

The Continental 10" is an awesome converter. I've been using one for 3 years. They (Chris) make various versions of it. Mine stalls at 2200, but I can push it to 2400 if I let the trans temp get up to 150-160. They are extremely efficient on the top end. Many of my freinds are running them now do to my success, all are happy. My Holeshot exploded at 90 mph on a freeway on ramp at a time when my car was running 12.60's with a fairly stock 400. I also broke the sprag on a Jim Butler recomended TCI 11". The price was right at I think around $240. But it broke on a freeway onramp just like the B&M. Scared the hell out of me both times. (I don't blame Jim by the way...@#it happens.)

That said, does your track give 1/8th mile times and mph? The split times might tell us something. Also, is there a reason your 60fts cover such a wide spread? They shouldn't vary more than 3 hundreths or so unless you are having tire spin problems.

There are many low cost ways to play with your suspension for better traction and 60fts, thats how I achieved low 1.7's on my Grand Am radials.

Also, what air filter assembly do you run, and what temp do you normally make passes at?
Do you clean out your motor after burnout and prior to launch? Carefull technique can provide substantial boosts in et.

Karl

[Goatman]

Karl, I agree whole heartedly. My intent was not too start a fight or divide the lines between us. It happened just the same. I again appologize. I had worked a double shift Friday and had to work all weekend instead of getting my car ready to go to Englishtown this weekend and was more than a little miffed about it. That does not excuse my actions, nor did it warrant anybody else's. I think if you look a little closer, you'll see I had a little encouragment in "going off the edge" like I did. Again, I hope we can put this behind us, all of us, and get back to business.

Ol' Pinion head, again, read the post I wrote yesterday (the one Karl was referring to) and you will see that my line of thought was clear and logical. I have no doubts that someone who has been working on Q-jets for years could change the jets in 20 or 30 minutes. I was starting a ground zero back then and therefore, I had to make a choice.

71TA's post mentioned performance and nothing else about streetability or gas milage, therefore, I assumed that he was not concerned about those attributes. That, in my mind, said that maybe the Holley would be a better choice for him. I figured that line of thought saved me allot of time and I could therefore save him some time as well.

As for my own experiences with BOTH carbs, I own a 81' Formula with the 301T motor (63,000 original miles), so I do own a Q-jet car. It is true that that car would not be considered a "prime" example of what a q-jet can do, but it runs OK. I have had a few other cars with q-jets, but haven't kept them long enough to get any figures. With the 3.08 gears, the Formula gets decent gas milage, but at the same time, I drove a 76' Formula with a 400, 6x motor that I built with 9.5:1, a small hydraulic cam, Holley 650, TH350, etc, etc and that got about the same gas milage as my 81' does. I drove that 76' for a year straight (including all winter) 60 miles each way to work and back and it never let me down. So you see, even though I'm 26 years of age, I've done a bit with Pontiacs already and I have has some real world experience when it comes to carbs.

[71 T/A]

My car makes it passes at about 190 temp.
The air cleaner is stock with a K & N filter.
The wide range of 60 foot times is due to various track conditions and some tire spin.
How much stall do I need with the cam that Comp says ranges from 2200-6000?

[zedo]

I agree with Goatman- he makes a good point. No reason to blanket-party him, guys. A Holley is a better all-out racing carb, (or should I say "race-only carb".) Why else would Pro Stocks be using them.

Problem is, not everyone can ante up for a Dominator or BG Demon. Qjets being so cheap and plentiful, the do-it-yourselfers naturally migrate towards using them. Myself included at one time, and even now to some extent. It comes down to what we all can afford, too. I've gotten quite a few Qjets for free. At one time, I had over 30 of them. I still have around a dozen. I don't think I had over $200 in all of them together !! They are fun to tinker with- lol.

Could you imagine owning 30 or more Demon carbs, or Dominators ?? Major investment !!

But I didn't take the Qjet off the last guy's Chevy truck 350 I rebuilt, and throw a Demon or Holley on it. I rebuilt and drilled on the Qjet.

NHRA SS class racers run low-10's and high-9's with Qjets, so obvioulsy they can be tweaked.

The few times I stepped up to an expensive Holley type carb, there was a marked improvement at WOT. But less part throttle driveability, of course. So Goatman, I see your point clearly. Each carb has it's application, and affordability factors.

[KS circutguy]

TA,you are should make a pass on the thermostat.
That is when it is just opening,I'm running a 160degree stat,and I make the best passes when the motor is at 160degrees when I leave the line,theirs 2-3 tenths in the temp. difference from 190 to 160degrees and a mile an hr. or to....
Also are you leaving while brake torquing the converter,or flashing it off idle.
My 2200 stall converter et's best by shallow staging the car,and brake torquing to 2200..
Try these techniques,and see if they don't improve your et's @ mph..
Steve. http://photo.starblvd.net/zanko20

[This message has been edited by KS circutguy (edited 08-28-2001).]

[71 T/A]

KS, the car won't run cooler than 190. I'm using a high flow Mr. Gasket 160 thermostat with 7-blade, 19-inch flex fan and it still runs 190.

I don't brake torque the car as I heard this reduces e.t. You're the first to tell me it helps e.t.

[KS circutguy]

1-Don't go buy what you heard'.

2-Let the car cool down good and try the launch at 160degrees,I have the same converter and the car et's better when I break torque the converter compared to flashing it..

The car has traction problems when I flash the converter.

I also run an electric fan so I can cool the motor back down between rounds.
Make 1 change at a time to see how it affects your et's and mph.
Keep a good record of all you passes,so you can later compare the results.
Try all the above and let us know how it affected you et's..
If your not running slicks don't overheat the tires too much on your burnout.
And do afew dry hops and when the car starts hooking stage the car and go..

Try it,Steve. http://photo.starblvd.net/zanko20

[GTO Karl]

71 T/A:

I have also found that bringing the car hard on the converter improves traction, 60 ft, and overall et. However, I will not claim this will work for all cars, converters, or of even my own applications if I change them. You have to test and tune to see what happens.

Your temp is hindering your performance and consistency. Is your thermo drilled with a couple small holes? Independent of what it does on the street, there are measures you can take at the track. After arrival, go to the cooling pit and cool everything, I run straight water and drain the radiator when I get there. Get the engine as cool as possible at least once, including your intake, carb, fuel pump.

From here on out, start the engine as little as possible, either "start and bump" in the lanes or push the car. Never let the engine idle and "hot soak". I like to start my burnout at 140 or less. By the time I'm staging, the engine is at 160-165 on the thermistat. Also, keep your hood open to let air flow through, taking unwanted heat with it. Try to plan when you start your car and do your burnout, so that there is no wasted time, especially waiting for someone else.

After your burnout, drive right up to just before the first beam, click it into nuetral, rev the engine to 3000rpm for a few seconds(maybe 10sec), then let off the gas to bring it down to idle.

This will clean off your plugs from any possible loading during your burnout, refill your float bowl, and let the fuel settle down and defoam. This alone can be worth a tenth, depending on whether this was a problem...it may not help you at all, but it has helped many, many of my friends over the years. Watch other cars do burnouts and launch, you will be amazed at how many are puking black smoke after a burnout, then go right up and stage.

Next, and this may not help you either, but it has worked for me and you should at least try. Stage into the first beam (barely),then bring the car hard on the converter, really hard. Pulse the brakes to stage the second beam, you should feel the front of the car rising, as the suspension gets preloaded from the torque. When staged, well, you should know what to do next.

The preloading will keep you from wasting engine energy raising the front end and transfering weight, during the first 60ft. Also, it will keep the drivetrain from "shocking" the tires on the launch, improving traction and consistency.

This has worked for me for all but two converters I owned, and those, I still brought them up pretty hard. I know many people say there cars work better off idle, or from a light load, might be...but I always experiment with each car I build or borrow, and this has worked best for me over the years.

Karl

[71 T/A]

Guys, thanks for the good advice. As far as the thermostat goes, I've run both 160 thermo and with just the body (no spring and guts) of a thermostat (in a different car).

What do you guys like to run?

Also, this motor only has about 550 miles sinces built. It may run cooler after 2000 miles especially since the rings were file fit.

[Bobtempest]

Goatman,
How fast is your car and what does it weigh?

[Goatman]

Funny you should ask, Bob. I brought the car to E-town this weekend and had a really nice time. Made three passes on Saturday. Keep in mind that these are the first three passes I've ever made with the car the way it is now. EVERYTHING in the car is brand new and I mean EVERYTHING.

First pass: 10.79 @ 126
Second pass: 10.74 @ 127
Third pass: 10.62 @ 128

These were all made with NO adjustments other than me loosening up the rear shocks a bit for the last pass. I NEVER touched the motor. I left off idle, on the foot break (the trans break will have to wait untill I get a better driveshaft).

The car weighs approximately 3500lbs with me in it. I say approximately because there was a lightning storm Friday that HIT the weigh station at the track and it was fried. I couldn't believe it! The car has a flat hood and uses 10.5" slicks.

Oh, and by the way, all of that was done through the mufflers.

[71 T/A]

Obviously, you have a combo that works. What cam, converter and gears do you run? You may have mentioned it, but please refresh my memory.

[Goatman]

Cam is a Nunzi design. .660"-.680" lift with 1.6 rockers. Converter is an ATI unit (as is my balancer and flywheel) with a 4400 stall. 12 bolt rear with 4.10's. Tires are 29.5x10.5x15W's. I did have to "clearance" the wheelwells a little bit to get them to fit.