[71 T/A]

I'm using the 850 Edlebrock RPM Quadrajet on my 69 GTO that's run 12.54 at 110. It's a 9.5:1 455 with RPM intake, ported 16 heads (245 at 550 lift), 2000 stall converter (may change that) and 3.55 gears. Should I go to an 800 double pumper for a mostly street car? Or some other carb?

[71 T/A]

I'm using the 850 Edlebrock RPM Quadrajet on my 69 GTO that's run 12.54 at 110. It's a 9.5:1 455 with RPM intake, ported 16 heads (245 at 550 lift), 2000 stall converter (may change that) and 3.55 gears. Should I go to an 800 double pumper for a mostly street car? Or some other carb?

[Goatman]

I would try a 750 DP before going to an 800. Anything will be an improvement over a Q-junk.

[Will]

What exactly is the problem with the Q-jet? Find it hard to believe a carb of equal CFM will perform any better than a properly tuned Q-jet. An improperly tuned Q-jet will run as bad as any carb that isn't setup right.

For the street, Q-jets with their small primaries are hard to beat for great throttle response and economy with great power on tap once the secondaries open.

-Will

[TinInjun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
What exactly is the problem with the Q-jet?


-Will<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The biggest problem with the Q-Jet is people don't spend the time to learn how it works and to properly tune it. The Q-Jet will run in the 10's with no problem when properly set up.

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"Run wild with an Indian, not with the crowd in a Chevy"

[Ken K]

The only 4 bbl carb I will ever run is a Quadrajet, how could you possibly go wrong? they only use as much carburation as the engine needs and they don't leak gas all over the place. You can let a Quadrajet sit for a few years, put fresh gas in the car and it will run and not leak. I have never owned a Holley that ran more than 6 months without problems.

[WDCreech]

I agree with Ken K. I do run a pair of BG 650s on my race car for tunability but I think Holleys suck on the street. I used to run a 1000 cfm Competition Thermo Quad in the "old days" but they quit making them. That was a killer carb on my 462" for street and strip. Incidentally, that was a 428 with a CT welded stroker in my '63 LeMans, Crower hydraulic cam, 12 bolt 4.56 gear, turbo 400, street driven, and run 11.610 @ 120 in 1988.
Still have the block (with three sleeves) but the crank eventually broke.

------------------

Bill

[Goatman]

First of all, this is the racing section, who cares about "street-ability". You want good street manners, buy an EFI setup. Q-junks have no place in racing and I won't even address what an abortion the "thermo-junk was (I can't believe someone actually brought that up). They are difficult to modify or tune, 10 times more so than a Holley. THAT IS A FACT

Go to any track and take a look at what all the fast cars are running......I guarantee you its not a Q-junk. Q-junks have their place, its called the trash barrel. Q-junks use technology the is 40 years old. They rely on rods to dispense fuel.....doesn't anyone see how poor that design is? I know, I know, Q-junks are so great that every intake manufacturer in the world is building intakes with that stupid Q-junk pattern on them too, right? Get a grip guys, the Q-junk has found its final resting place. The few dinosaurs that are still clinging to them are going down in a sea of 11 second or slower time slips.

I understand that most of you Q-junk fans have spent the greater part of the last 20 years beating your heads against the wall trying to get those things tuned and running correctly and its hard to just walk away, especially when you're comfortable, but come on guys, wake up and step up. Q-junks are not the future, but merely a small piece of the past.

By the way, I find it interesting that all of you Q-junk fans will accept and even appreciate the 1000 small nuances and annoyances that go into making a Q-junk actually work at all, but when it comes to the 5 screws and four jets that it takes to MASTER a Holley, no one is willing to learn. YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELVES OBSOLETE.

[This message has been edited by Goatman (edited 08-24-2001).]

[Ken K]

And a Holley is new technology? Get Real.

[Engo]

amen goatman.

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1969 Firebird 455
1/4 mile ET. 11.45@121.7mph

[Goatman]

KK, ever hear of the HP series or the Demon series? I guess not, you're still stuck in the 50's. When you get out, I'll let you know all about it. Then we'll move on to fuel injection.....the tool of the "Debil".

[Ken K]

Goatman, isn't a Demon a Barry Grant Carb? When you are ready to move up to fuel injection let me know. I use to test proto type cars.

[Goatman]

KK, I have a Fel-pro ready to bolt onto the Goat this winter, thanks. Maybe when I ad the D3M Procharger I have in my possesion and a liquid to air intercooler to it you and I can tune it for the track. It should be similar to the Q-junk.

The Demon series was created through Barry Grant's experiences with modifing the Holley carb. It is as all new as you can get for carboration. A pending lawsuit (at the time) is why he had to change the name of his companies and products.

What does testing protoype cars have to do with setting up EFI? Just curious.

[TinInjun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goatman:
but when it comes to the 5 screws and four jets that it takes to MASTER a Holley, no one is willing to learn. YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELVES OBSOLETE.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 screws and 4 jets is all it takes to master a Holley? I sure would like to know what model Holley you are refering to. The last Holley I set up had just a few more parts than that.
Lets see, first you add the whisle vents to both bowls, then the slosh tubes to the rear jets.Should I run the 50cc accellerator pump or the standard, what size squirters should I use front and rear, and what cams. Now what power valve to install and how many spares should I bring along cause I know this one is going to fail in the very near future. If it a vacuum secondary type you have to remove the check ball then bring along a handful of springs to set that up and a spare diaphram in case you rip the one installed.
Yup, if I use the new math of today that works out to 5 screws and 4 jets.
I guess that just goes to show that I am obsolete because I know how to set up a Q-Junk and a Holley that are both using 40 year old technology

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"Run wild with an Indian, not with the crowd in a Chevy"

[Ken K]

A Barry Grant carburator is not a Holley. In fact the basic 4 bbl Holley carb pre dates the Quadrajet. 9 times out of 10 someone who does not know how to make a Quadrajet work is because they messed with it and did not have a clue on what they were doing. Some people just don't have any bussiness near a carburator.

[Goatman]

Awww shucks, that almost makes me feel bad about using a Holley--NOT. Stick to going slow and changing metering rods if you like. Those who know, are the ones who go. I guess if all you do is to go to Pontiac bracket races, you'll have no problem putting a hurting on that mean looking Sunfire or Aztec in the next lane. Wow, that'll impress the nieghbors.

Tin Injun, stay away from those "killer" $25 swap meet special Holleys that have been taken apart by Q-junk guys trying to figure out "what makes those darn things tick" and you'll have 90% of you're "tuning problems" taken care of. You get what you pay for.

I know, I know, "the last time you" set up a Holley they were probably still wearing polyester pants at the track, right? You see, they've actually had this new thing called "progress" when it comes to Holley carbs and parts, and you can now buy parts that are reliable and work, right from the manufacturer or an aftermarket supplier. Plus, there is another couple of inventions called the telephone and e-mail that you can actually use to ask questions about tuning your carb from people called "experts". So you see, tuning that scary old Holley really isn't that bad after all.

DP Holley's are older than Q-junks huh? Well I guess you learn something new everyday.......or maybe not. Get a clue guys.

Have fun, be safe, see you at the races.

[71 T/A]

Goatman,
A lot of people running 11s or worse run Holleys. In fact, you can run the identical time with a Holley or Q-jet. Mike Noun and Jim Hand have run solid 11s with Q-jets. If they believed they could run better with Holleys, they would have run them. I have used Holley double pumpers before. They are good carbs. In many instances, I ran them out of the box with little or no tuning because none was required. They can provide super mid range/top end power. You just need plenty of gears and converter.

However, they have tempermental needle & seats where the slightest bit of dirt can make your Holley and car not want to idle. They also suffer from fuel starvation problems on quick stops - something the much more expensive HP carbs are supposed to prevent with their jet extensions. HP Holleys are also priced well over $500. Also, Q-Jets just plain last. I recently owned a 78 T/A with its original carb. You think a Holley would last that long? That's the biggest reason, I tried an 850 Edelbrock Q-jet.

[Goatman]

Ok 71, so lets look at your post logically. We'll break it down, sentance by sentance, well, maybe not that intensely, but you'll see the light.

"A lot of people run 11's or worse with Holleys" well what a coincidence, the Aztecs and Sunfires are that slow too, what the hell does that have to do with the price of tea? If your motor doesn't make enough power, no matter what kind of carb you use, you won't go 11's. That applies to the Hands as well (no offense to anyone in particular) but a Q-junk will get you into the 11's if you want to spend the 15 years learning how to tune it.

"they have tempermental needles and seats where the slightest bit of dirt can make your Holley and car not want to idle" well I guess we should all run Q-junks and let dirt and gunk into our motors, good thinking there. You shouldn't have dirt or anything else in your fuel system to begin with, think about that for just a minute.

"they also suffer from fuel starvation problems on quick stops-something the much more expensive HP carbs are supposed to prevent with their jet extensions." So let me get this straight, for a $4 pair of jet extensions, you'll either not run a Holley or go buy $500 carb? 71, you have got to be smarter than that. Go to the local speed shop and get yourself a pair of jet extensions-problem solved.

"also, Q-junks just plain last. I recently owned a 78 TA with its original carb. You think a Holley would last that long?" No, you're absolutely right, there are absolutely NO CARS OF ANY OTHER MAKE OR MODEL THAT CAME WITH A HOLLEY FROM THE FACTORY THAT ARE STILL RUNNING. Get real!

You've got to be able to put up better arguments than this guys. But I guess, when your whole basis for argument is made up of nostalgia and "black magic", this is what I'll just have to keep picking apart.

Run a Holley, you'll be better off. This is the racing section, where YOU posted this topic, Q-junks have no place here.

[71 T/A]

Goatman,
From the beginning, I said my car runs mid 12s. I don't expect to go 11s with just a carb change. I just wanted opinions of my 850 Q-jet and might another carb run a little better.

First, you don't need 15 years to learn how to tune a Q-jet or Holley. The people running them will attest to that. Unless you're running 10s or better, a Q-jet can get the job done.

None of us want dirt in our fuel systems, but even with good fuel filters it can happen. I have experienced problems with Holleys getting their needle and seats stuck with dirt (usually the tiniest speck). Many racers have told me Holleys are notious for this problem so it's not just my opinion.

You're right about the jet extensions that can be purchased for about $4. But your average Holley has this built in problem that you need to modify probably before you ever set the carb on your engine. Holley brags about the already included extensions in their HP series carbs that go for over $200 over the same CFM regular double pumper. Why not include this on your standard Holley? Hey, it's only $4! No, Holley would rather us take apart a brand new carb to relieve an inherent problem that Q-jets don't have.

I don't expect a 30 year old, let's say Camaro Z-28, to have its original Holley. But most people will tell you, as countless have told me, that Q-jets will outlast Holleys. Plus, I've experienced the two carbs firsthand. Holleys just don't last.

Holleys can perform very well. They just have some problems that you'll have to live with.

[Goatman]

71, you wanted an opinion of your Q-junk and I gave you mine. You wanted to know if another carb would work better and I said "yes, a 750 DP Holley would indeed work better for you".

If you don't like the answers, than don't ask the questions, brother. I've been racing for over seven years now and I've been there, from the Fastest Street Car shootouts to the crappiest honda vs four banger Mustang bracket races you could imagine. No one serious about performance or speed runs a Q-junk.

Go to the track, don't take my word for it, go there for yourself and talk to people, look under hoods, do research. I don't expect you to take anyone's unfounded word alone here (including mine)and that's what you'll never here from the Q-junk guys on ANY board. They don't want you going to the track and seeing what REAL racers who want to go fast have under their hoods, cause then they'd loose another Q-junk disciple. That's the truth. I'm going home now, I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow to hear more crap about.....well, you already know.