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#1
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Filled the block up with oil and tipped it back to test the rear main the pan gasket. It looks sketchy in the pic, but don't worry, it wasn't going anywhere. I was feeling confident so of course it leaked like a sieve! I thought it was the arch on the back of the pan, but that looks to be sealing ok. Looks like the rear corners of the pan gasket are the culprit. Rear main shows no signs of leaking at the moment.
The Ultra Grey I used on the corners did not adhere to the block at all and might be reason why it leaked so bad. I cleaned the block rails pretty well with brake cleaner before installing and it's been sitting for 4 or 5 days now, not sure why it didn't stick. There wasn't a problem using it to stick the crank scraper down. It glued it self to the gasket pretty well though. Back to the drawing board I guess.
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) Last edited by Verdoro 68; 10-06-2022 at 11:43 AM. |
#2
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#3
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#4
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Black is specifically made for oil. I tend to only use grey on sensors and stuff.
https://www.permatex.com/products/ga...maker-3-35-oz/ .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#5
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I haven' t made much progress resealing the pan as I was out of town last week and down with a cold this week, but it turns out that's a good thing. I got a message from Butler today saying they've had quality issues with the 8031 cams and needed to speak with me. I wasn't able to call them back during business hours, so I'll likely have to wait and see until next week to see what the deal is. Gonna be annoyed if I have to pull this apart, but I'd rather do it now than after my brand new, very expensive engine ate a lobe.
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
The Following User Says Thank You to Verdoro 68 For This Useful Post: | ||
#6
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70 TA, 467 cid IAII, Edelbrock D-port heads, 9.94:1, Butler HR 236/242 @ .050, 520/540 lift, 112 LSA, Ray Klemm calibrated Q-jet, TKX (2.87 1st/.81 OD), 3.31 rear https://youtube.com/shorts/gG15nb4FWeo?feature=share |
The Following User Says Thank You to jhein For This Useful Post: | ||
#7
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They ran across a few of the 8031 cams that had "very noticeable pitting" on some of the lobes. They haven't been able to ID any cams that made it to customers with the issues, so this is a false alarm on my end since my cam looks good. Props to Butler for reaching out to customers!
I also called my machine shop to check in on my heads since that's what's holding me up now. He was down with COVID for three weeks and is just now getting back to work. I definitely feel for the guy and am being patient. Funny that these were the first things I dropped off for this build back in January before I even decided to build a stroker. He promised an update towards the end of the week.
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#8
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Thanks for the follow up. Glad you're good. I didn't see anything on my cam and Archie goes over all that stuff before he puts it together so I should be good too.
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70 TA, 467 cid IAII, Edelbrock D-port heads, 9.94:1, Butler HR 236/242 @ .050, 520/540 lift, 112 LSA, Ray Klemm calibrated Q-jet, TKX (2.87 1st/.81 OD), 3.31 rear https://youtube.com/shorts/gG15nb4FWeo?feature=share Last edited by jhein; 10-24-2022 at 06:29 PM. |
#9
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While I wait for the heads, I am having a hell of a time getting this thing to seal up.
Since my last go 'round, I put a new BOP one piece pan seal on using dabs of Permatex black in the four corners. That stuff seems to seal much better, but I've still got a few drips from the rear of the pan. Looks like there's definitely a leak on the rear arch arch. I left the tabs on the seal this time, but probably shouldn't have since they don't line up that great with my pan. I think they interfered with the rear arch seating properly, so I'll cut them off for this next attempt. I am seeing some oil collected on the rear of the crank, but it doesn't appear to be wet up by the rear main seal, so I think the oil carried over from the pan while I had the engine tipped. Any way to be sure it's not the rear main too? I'm also seeing oil collected at the top of the rear main stud thread. Not sure if it's seeping up or residual from having the block upside down on the stand. Any tips to get this thing to seal? I didn't think it would be this difficult.
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#10
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Everything back there needs to be as perfect as possible, there's very little to no 'fudge factor' allowed.
It's been so long since I've used a factory type pan, I really can't comment on that area much. I think back in the day when I still used OE pans, I did lean towards the cork seals, but those can be tricky too. The rubber nubs rarely line up correctly. and when they do, they still leaked for me. I used to curl up the cork gasket and leave it sit like that overnight. That helped it lay properly during install, and made trimming it easier. I remember the full engine gasket sets used to come with a number of different rear pan seals, like 3 rubber ones, and then of course the cork. I recall I could never get any of the rubber ones to work, but the one rubber one that leaked the least was the one that was just a ribbed 'belt', with the small teets that went into the recess in the block where the cap meets. The 2-piece rear main seals need to be perfect. I would always spend a lot of time on those, and, when done, you had to stare hard to even see where the parting lines were. That's my brain-dump as of now, keep chopping away at it, you will get it. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#11
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I used the BOP one piece pan gasket and it leaked in the back. I ended up pulling the engine back out and used a bead of Right Stuff on both sides of the gasket. Sealed it up nicely. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Let me have a Diablo sandwich and a Dr. Pepper and make it fast---I'm in a goddamn hurry! - Mike 1967 GTO |
#12
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I never could get a 3 tit rear gasket to seal. most just putting them on the pan are too long and do not lay straight. Only one side is flat the other curved to slide around. I always convert them to a flat on both sides 5 tit rear gasket with a Dremel making slots in the pan or just cutting the tabs off. it is flat on both sides. Other folks like the flat cork .
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#13
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All 3 of my Canton pans and Milodon pan were 3 **** initially.
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
#14
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I went ahead and trimmed the tabs off the gasket. You can see in the pics that they were way off from where the gasket wanted to be positioned, so I'm sure that was part of my problem. The stamps on the pan are also off from side to side (Canton stock replacement pan). I positioned the gasket on the block first and ensured it was correctly seated in the channel on the rear man. For extra insurance, I ran a thin bead of gasket maker on both side of the gasket around the rear main. We'll see if the third time is the charm.
__________________
Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#15
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Good news: The last pass sealed the oil pan.
Bad news: I discovered the rear main has a small leak. I had to trim the one piece seal to get it to sit down in the channel, and I never really felt 100% about it, so I'm not totally surprised it's leaking. I also read in some old threads that line honed blocks can have some trouble with the neoprene seals so that may be a contributing factor. Additionally, the #5 journal was also the odd one out in terms of bearing clearance (loose compared to the others) and required a different shell so something must be off just enough to cause a leak. I bought a BOP two piece just in case the one piece leaked, but now I'm wondering if the Best Seal graphite seal would be a better choice. From what I've read, they seem to be more forgiving but I'd have to pull the crank back out to install it.
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#16
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Isn't this an aftermarket crank? If so, they generally don't have the serrations that you typically see for the rope style seals.
I've always used the 2 piece BOP seals with excellent results as long as the crank seal surface has a smooth finish. Just out of curiosity, when you installed that rear main cap, you did use a bit of sealant on the face of the cap that sits on the machined surface of the block......correct?? That is a common source of a leak that makes it appear to be a rear main seal, and I still see that little detail missed on occasion where people forget to put sealant in that area. Just thought I'd mention it. |
#17
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Wade from BOP reached out when I saw my order go through this morning (gotta love that kind of service!). We've been batting emails back and forth trying to diagnose. One thing I neglected to do was to measure the crank seal diameter and the compressed seal diameter and compare. My hunch is that the journal in the block is slightly out of round. Considering the #5 bearing clearance was +.010 more from the other journals with the same bearing, it makes me wonder if the line hone was bungled on #5. Like maybe the machinist didn't take enough off the cap? Either way, sounds like I should take things apart and pull the crank out to figure out what's going on.
__________________
Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#18
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#19
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Sounds like the BOP seal is the way to go with this crank given the serrations. I reached out to Butler to get their two cents since they put a lot of these together. I also asked about using a smidge of sealant under the rear main cap Just to confirm, this is an Eagle aftermarket crank.
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Ken '68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#20
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You can change to a rope seal without completely removing the crankshaft. I did it about 5-6 years ago in my 421. I removed the main caps to pry the crankshaft up. Then I removed the crappy fel pro "rope" rear seal, worked a "Best" rope seal into the groove, tightened front 4 main caps to seat the crank and it packed the new rope seal into the groove. Then I carefully trimmed the rope seal and was very careful to not nick the crank with the supplied razor blade that came with the Best rope seal. After it was trimmed to suit me, I ran RTV on the edge of the rope seal and brought it out to the edge of where the main cap will lay. After I packed the seal in the main cap, I torqued it down and finished the engine. I have put many miles on the car and it is as dry as a bone around the rear main seal and oil pan. Also, in my opinion, the BOP 1 piece pan gasket is worth every penny.
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