[HWYSTR455]

Black is specifically made for oil. I tend to only use grey on sensors and stuff.

https://www.permatex.com/products/ga...maker-3-35-oz/

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[Verdoro 68]

I haven' t made much progress resealing the pan as I was out of town last week and down with a cold this week, but it turns out that's a good thing. I got a message from Butler today saying they've had quality issues with the 8031 cams and needed to speak with me. I wasn't able to call them back during business hours, so I'll likely have to wait and see until next week to see what the deal is. Gonna be annoyed if I have to pull this apart, but I'd rather do it now than after my brand new, very expensive engine ate a lobe.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

I haven' t made much progress resealing the pan as I was out of town last week and down with a cold this week, but it turns out that's a good thing. I got a message from Butler today saying they've had quality issues with the 8031 cams and needed to speak with me. I wasn't able to call them back during business hours, so I'll likely have to wait and see until next week to see what the deal is. Gonna be annoyed if I have to pull this apart, but I'd rather do it now than after my brand new, very expensive engine ate a lobe.

Sorry to hear that. I'm eager to see how your motor turns out. But, at least you found out now. I 'm also interested in what the problem is since I have the 8030 cam...

[Verdoro 68]

They ran across a few of the 8031 cams that had "very noticeable pitting" on some of the lobes. They haven't been able to ID any cams that made it to customers with the issues, so this is a false alarm on my end since my cam looks good. Props to Butler for reaching out to customers!

I also called my machine shop to check in on my heads since that's what's holding me up now. He was down with COVID for three weeks and is just now getting back to work. I definitely feel for the guy and am being patient. Funny that these were the first things I dropped off for this build back in January before I even decided to build a stroker. He promised an update towards the end of the week.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

They ran across a few of the 8031 cams that had "very noticeable pitting" on some of the lobes.

Thanks for the follow up. Glad you're good. I didn't see anything on my cam and Archie goes over all that stuff before he puts it together so I should be good too.

[Verdoro 68]

While I wait for the heads, I am having a hell of a time getting this thing to seal up.

Since my last go 'round, I put a new BOP one piece pan seal on using dabs of Permatex black in the four corners. That stuff seems to seal much better, but I've still got a few drips from the rear of the pan. Looks like there's definitely a leak on the rear arch arch. I left the tabs on the seal this time, but probably shouldn't have since they don't line up that great with my pan. I think they interfered with the rear arch seating properly, so I'll cut them off for this next attempt.

I am seeing some oil collected on the rear of the crank, but it doesn't appear to be wet up by the rear main seal, so I think the oil carried over from the pan while I had the engine tipped. Any way to be sure it's not the rear main too? I'm also seeing oil collected at the top of the rear main stud thread. Not sure if it's seeping up or residual from having the block upside down on the stand.

Any tips to get this thing to seal? I didn't think it would be this difficult.

[Skip Fix]

I never could get a 3 tit rear gasket to seal. most just putting them on the pan are too long and do not lay straight. Only one side is flat the other curved to slide around. I always convert them to a flat on both sides 5 tit rear gasket with a Dremel making slots in the pan or just cutting the tabs off. it is flat on both sides. Other folks like the flat cork .

[HWYSTR455]

Everything back there needs to be as perfect as possible, there's very little to no 'fudge factor' allowed.

It's been so long since I've used a factory type pan, I really can't comment on that area much. I think back in the day when I still used OE pans, I did lean towards the cork seals, but those can be tricky too. The rubber nubs rarely line up correctly. and when they do, they still leaked for me.

I used to curl up the cork gasket and leave it sit like that overnight. That helped it lay properly during install, and made trimming it easier.

I remember the full engine gasket sets used to come with a number of different rear pan seals, like 3 rubber ones, and then of course the cork. I recall I could never get any of the rubber ones to work, but the one rubber one that leaked the least was the one that was just a ribbed 'belt', with the small teets that went into the recess in the block where the cap meets.

The 2-piece rear main seals need to be perfect. I would always spend a lot of time on those, and, when done, you had to stare hard to even see where the parting lines were.

That's my brain-dump as of now, keep chopping away at it, you will get it.


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[Qball]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

While I wait for the heads, I am having a hell of a time getting this thing to seal up.

Since my last go 'round, I put a new BOP one piece pan seal on using dabs of Permatex black in the four corners. That stuff seems to seal much better, but I've still got a few drips from the rear of the pan. Looks like there's definitely a leak on the rear arch arch. I left the tabs on the seal this time, but probably shouldn't have since they don't line up that great with my pan. I think they interfered with the rear arch seating properly, so I'll cut them off for this next attempt.

I am seeing some oil collected on the rear of the crank, but it doesn't appear to be wet up by the rear main seal, so I think the oil carried over from the pan while I had the engine tipped. Any way to be sure it's not the rear main too? I'm also seeing oil collected at the top of the rear main stud thread. Not sure if it's seeping up or residual from having the block upside down on the stand.

Any tips to get this thing to seal? I didn't think it would be this difficult.

I used the BOP one piece pan gasket and it leaked in the back. I ended up pulling the engine back out and used a bead of Right Stuff on both sides of the gasket. Sealed it up nicely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skip Fix]

All 3 of my Canton pans and Milodon pan were 3 **** initially.

[Verdoro 68]

I went ahead and trimmed the tabs off the gasket. You can see in the pics that they were way off from where the gasket wanted to be positioned, so I'm sure that was part of my problem. The stamps on the pan are also off from side to side (Canton stock replacement pan). I positioned the gasket on the block first and ensured it was correctly seated in the channel on the rear man. For extra insurance, I ran a thin bead of gasket maker on both side of the gasket around the rear main. We'll see if the third time is the charm.

[Verdoro 68]

Good news: The last pass sealed the oil pan.
Bad news: I discovered the rear main has a small leak.

I had to trim the one piece seal to get it to sit down in the channel, and I never really felt 100% about it, so I'm not totally surprised it's leaking. I also read in some old threads that line honed blocks can have some trouble with the neoprene seals so that may be a contributing factor. Additionally, the #5 journal was also the odd one out in terms of bearing clearance (loose compared to the others) and required a different shell so something must be off just enough to cause a leak. I bought a BOP two piece just in case the one piece leaked, but now I'm wondering if the Best Seal graphite seal would be a better choice. From what I've read, they seem to be more forgiving but I'd have to pull the crank back out to install it.

[Formulajones]

Isn't this an aftermarket crank? If so, they generally don't have the serrations that you typically see for the rope style seals.

I've always used the 2 piece BOP seals with excellent results as long as the crank seal surface has a smooth finish.

Just out of curiosity, when you installed that rear main cap, you did use a bit of sealant on the face of the cap that sits on the machined surface of the block......correct??

That is a common source of a leak that makes it appear to be a rear main seal, and I still see that little detail missed on occasion where people forget to put sealant in that area. Just thought I'd mention it.

[John Milner]

You can change to a rope seal without completely removing the crankshaft. I did it about 5-6 years ago in my 421. I removed the main caps to pry the crankshaft up. Then I removed the crappy fel pro "rope" rear seal, worked a "Best" rope seal into the groove, tightened front 4 main caps to seat the crank and it packed the new rope seal into the groove. Then I carefully trimmed the rope seal and was very careful to not nick the crank with the supplied razor blade that came with the Best rope seal. After it was trimmed to suit me, I ran RTV on the edge of the rope seal and brought it out to the edge of where the main cap will lay. After I packed the seal in the main cap, I torqued it down and finished the engine. I have put many miles on the car and it is as dry as a bone around the rear main seal and oil pan. Also, in my opinion, the BOP 1 piece pan gasket is worth every penny.

[Verdoro 68]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Isn't this an aftermarket crank? If so, they generally don't have the serrations that you typically see for the rope style seals.

I've always used the 2 piece BOP seals with excellent results as long as the crank seal surface has a smooth finish.

Just out of curiosity, when you installed that rear main cap, you did use a bit of sealant on the face of the cap that sits on the machined surface of the block......correct??

That is a common source of a leak that makes it appear to be a rear main seal, and I still see that little detail missed on occasion where people forget to put sealant in that area. Just thought I'd mention it.

Yes, I did. It doesn't appear to be leaking there. Looks like it's collecting and dripping right out of the middle of the seal. Caveat - I used the grey sealant which isn't provided to be worth much, so I'll use the black next time.

Wade from BOP reached out when I saw my order go through this morning (gotta love that kind of service!). We've been batting emails back and forth trying to diagnose. One thing I neglected to do was to measure the crank seal diameter and the compressed seal diameter and compare. My hunch is that the journal in the block is slightly out of round. Considering the #5 bearing clearance was +.010 more from the other journals with the same bearing, it makes me wonder if the line hone was bungled on #5. Like maybe the machinist didn't take enough off the cap?

Either way, sounds like I should take things apart and pull the crank out to figure out what's going on.

[Verdoro 68]

Tore down the short block this afternoon. As far as I can tell, the one piece seal developed some kind of a kink in it on the side during installation that contributed to the leak. Maybe I didn't trim it enough or have it seated good enough and it compressed funny.

At first glance, the two piece seems to fit the radius reasonably well, but it's going to need to be trimmed quite a bit as around .025 is sticking out of the block and a little less on the cap. I could give this two piece a try since I've got it on hand, but I'm wondering if the graphite seal is the safer bet since I rarely ever hear about them leaking.

[Verdoro 68]

I pulled the crank out last night - so much fun undoing all the work of the last month!

I've been trading emails with Wade at BOP, I really appreciate his responsiveness. He described the serrations in my crank "aggressive" and relayed some concern about a graphite seal working in my siutation. I can't catch them with my fingernail, but they do make a washboard sound when I run my nail over them.

He had me measure the diameter of the sealing surface on the crank (3.1858). It's on the low end of the recommended tolerance of 3.188 +/- .003 for the one and two piece seals. He recommended a light polish of the serrations on the crank and trimming the two piece down to get a .020 preload to make up for being on the low end. Being at the low end of the tolerance doesn't give me a lot of confidence but I'll give it a shot. He also said the tip test isn't a 100% reliable way to check for leaks since some oil may seep past the crank serrations.

On the plus side, I got my carb back from Ray Klemm yesterday. Nothing fancy in terms of restoration or plating, just a rebuild and a tune. I'm really impressed that he runs and tunes the carbs before sending them off! He ended up putting a 72/39 combo in it. Can't wait to see how it runs, but I've got a ways before I mount the carb on top of this thing.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

He recommended a light polish of the serrations on the crank and trimming the two piece down to get a .020 preload to make up for being on the low end. Being at the low end of the tolerance doesn't give me a lot of confidence but I'll give it a shot. He also said the tip test isn't a 100% reliable way to check for leaks since some oil may seep past the crank serrations.

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That's how I do them, and use the 2 piece, never an issue. I never do the tip test either

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah I thought the questions regarding the hash on the crank was brought up before? I too thought this was an aftermarket crank.

Just to say, applying sealant to the block/cap mating surfaces is a no-no, it should be dry & clean. It won't leak there ever. (and can contaminate the bearing surfaces and/or cause torque reading problems.)

The only time you see leaks there is from the seal parting line.

If you don't believe me, call BOP and ask.


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[Formulajones]

The same guys that tell you a vacuum advance isn't necessary, lol.

I don't care what BOP says, it will absolutely leak past the cap mating surface.
The gasket only goes over the top, and the rear main seal only seals the crank surface. The cap area is metal to metal and it will seep oil through there over time.

Where people make a mistake is applying a glob of sealant there. Of course that can cause bearing clearance variances and obviously if too much is used it gets into places you don't want. All you need on that surface is a very small line of green loctite. It seals and doesn't affect how the cap mates to the block, won't affect bearing clearance or torque readings. Done.