[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Big difference between "remembering" and being able to walk out into the garage and see something you bought 45 years earlier.

LOL! That's true - I find my "remember-er" doesn't work quite as well as it used to!

K

[John V.]

GTOnly70, you looked up the definition of inherent and I believe you still didn't comprehend the meaning.

There is the tangible essential nature of a '64 GTO which are the physical parts. Take away the 389 and it is no longer a GTO, the VIN cannot change that. Viewed this way, there is hardly a difference between a 6 cyl Tempest and a GTO and even less difference between a V8 Lemans and a GTO. Stick a 389 in that Tempest or Lemans and that car gets very close to the essential nature of a GTO. That is my opinion. Others look at the PHS and if the PHS shows it was built as a GTO, that is what matters. Take away the 389, put in a built SBC and they still see the car as a GTO.

Debating why people are willing to pay what they do to acquire a collectible is a dead end street. Each has his/her peculiar reasons, pointless to attempt an understanding of those reasons.

IMO, the main thing that drives up the value of collectibles is the MYSTIQUE associated with them. This is the intangible by which they are viewed with reverence.

The mystique surrounding the '64 GTO is in part based on the March Car & Driver report from David E. Davis, Jr. in which he gushed over a Nocturne Blue '64 GTO, unaware that the car he spent some 10 days or so testing during a family vacation had been modified with a 421 engine. The 389 wasn't so bad, but without the 421, Davis may have been less smitten and the GTO may not have achieved the success that it did. But the fact is, the car he tested was no more a GTO than the 6 cyl Tempest. Funny (and quite ironic in my view) that the car that spawned the mystique that makes the GTO so valued would not pass muster as a "factory correct" car today. If that car existed today, unless the historical connection to the C&D report could be made, it would be seriously devalued because it was not "matching nos.".

Car hobbyists love to compare hobby cars to the art world. I think it is a flawed analogy. Da Vinci did not churn out tens of thousands of original copies of the Mona Lisa. Pontiac did churn out tens of thousands of virtually identical GTO copies each year and it did so using mass production common parts that were also used on many more tens of thousands of other Pontiacs. The same 389 Block used in every GTO was common to hundreds of thousands of Engines assembled for the big Pontiacs. There is nothing intrinsically more valuable about a Block that was used in a GTO engine,yet Pontiac hobbyists tend to pay far more for a GTO Block than they would for a Catalina Block.

You say that it is "not that hard to understand". I'm a pretty sharp guy, but I believe it is incomprehensible because every Pontiac hobbyist has his own unique justification for why he would or wouldn't pay premium prices for something, whether it is a Block or some other part or a whole car.

I acknowledged in my earlier post that Fine1965 should seek out a documented GTO if he is making an investment purchase. But most GTO hobbyists are not buying investment grade examples. They are buying hobby cars. If you pay investment grade prices and then use it like a driver, you will see your investment sink faster than your 401k. If you buy a nice hobby GTO that is a very authentic recreation and keep it up, I'd venture to say it will hold its value as well or better than a clapped out documented GTO that somebody would need to pour a ton of money into to restore.

Just my opinion. I think there is room for all of us in this hobby.

Tom, I lived in Chicago at the tail end of the elder Daley's administration. Funniest thing I remember that illustrates the idea that he literally owned Chicago was when the Bears were lobbying for a new stadium to be financed by the City of course. The Bears threatened that if they didn't get a new stadium, they would move out to the 'burbs.

At a press conference, Daley full of bluster and bravado, explained that the Bears were welcome to do whatever they wanted, BUT, "Dey won't be da Sha-cogga Bears. Dey can be the Arr-linton Heights Bears but dey won't be da Sha-cogga Bears." That just cracked me up at the time. Of course, Da Bears remained at Soldier Field for about 30 more years until they got a new stadium. I guess they got the message.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Tom, I lived in Chicago at the tail end of the elder Daley's administration. Funniest thing I remember that illustrates the idea that he literally owned Chicago was when the Bears were lobbying for a new stadium to be financed by the City of course. The Bears threatened that if they didn't get a new stadium, they would move out to the 'burbs.

At a press conference, Daley full of bluster and bravado, explained that the Bears were welcome to do whatever they wanted, BUT, "Dey won't be da Sha-cogga Bears. Dey can be the Arr-linton Heights Bears but dey won't be da Sha-cogga Bears." That just cracked me up at the time. Of course, Da Bears remained at Soldier Field for about 30 more years until they got a new stadium. I guess they got the message.

"Sha-cogga..."

LOL!

Although here in Detroit we also have a long and glorious tradition of mayoral corruption, perhaps our Mayor was not so clear, since the "Detroit" Lions stadium was, for many many years, located in Pontiac....

[Tom Vaught]

As usual, Mr John V explains things far more clearly than I ever could in print.

Quote:

"most GTO hobbyists are not buying investment grade examples. They are buying hobby cars. If you pay investment grade prices and then use it like a driver, you will see your investment sink faster than your 401k."

NOW THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT! (:>)

John, I am amazed at how little some people actually know about the places and the politics where they have always lived. I guess if you are safe and well-fed, you don't need to know about the other parts of the 'system' that is making the decisions around you.

Tom Vaught