[fine1965]

how can you tell a real 65 gto sedan from a clone, i know all was not stamps on the tag.
thanks joe

[mwritter]

It doesn't get any easier to fake than a '65. There are telltale signs, but PHS is the only way to tell for sure. Spend the $45 or so and be done with it.

[F ROCK]

not sure but i think the all gto's from 1965 till 1971 vin started w/ "24237; lemans was 23537, but maybe that started in 1966

[F ROCK]

Matt would know...

[65gto69]

64 and 65 Lemans, GTO, all had the same vin numbers, just different for hardtop, sedan or convert.

66 and up had different vin numbers for GTO's and Lemans.

That is why 64 and 65 are the easiest to clone. Pretty much just emblem differences, hood and motor. That is why PHS is pretty much the only way to get a for sure on whether the car in question is a Lemans or GTO.

Mark

[Tom Vaught]

PHS is not Perfect by ANY MEANS and people in the know will agree with me on that deal.

It will save 99% of the people from spending more money than they should for a POS real GTO vs a POS clone. A very nice clone will be worth money no matter what the VIN tag says.

Tom Vaught

[65gto69]

Yes Tom, I do agree with you, some one could have actually taken the vin number from a junked GTO and put it on a Lemans, situation where the PHS won't work.

Just have to do a little research between the vin and firewall tag and other numbers found throughout the car.

64 and 65 are a real problem in our market.

Mark

[Tom Vaught]

Not a problem for me as I keep what I have, and don't worry too much about making money on the thing after 45 years.

Even when my car was new (to me), as I received it, the PHS did not match the vehicle. Some of the mods were probably made by the Pontiac Zone Office. PHS said Power Brakes - car as received never had power brakes installed. (among other things)

The 5N deal statement put out by Year One has caused tons of issues for cars built BY THE FACTORY without the 5N on the data plate. In some cases people passed up perfectly valid correct GTOs:
(Fremont and Baltimore Cars).

Think to remember, Year One was not perfect, PHS is not perfect as PHS only goes by what A Human Being put on the sheets. Course we know Humans Never make mistakes.

Tom Vaught

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Not a problem for me as I keep what I have, and don't worry too much about making money on the thing after 45 years.

Amen, brother.

[chrisp]

Look in the front lower fenders in front of the doors , as the lemans had a series of louvers and there could be signs of a series of holes from where thy might have existed . Of course someone could have installed true gto fenders .

[John V.]

I agree too. The availability of Manifest, Billing History, or Invoice records thru PHS has been both a blessing and a bane for the Pontiac hobby IMO.

I have always said that these documents are worth exactly what you pay for them, no more, no less. For me, they have been a gold mine of data and they have helped solve some riddles.

But I personally don't understand why any hobbyist attaches value to the car on the basis of them, all out of proportion to what his eyes could otherwise tell him.

There is a '64 GTO convertible out there that I'm somewhat familiar with that is perhaps the most exceptional example of a factory correct build down to the nuts & bolts, even the rivets securing the upper ball joints. One problem, the car originally came from the factory WITHOUT the GTO option.

As a consequence, the market value was reduced by 1/3, maybe more. Personally, I think the guy who bought it a couple years ago got a steal. Is it a GTO? I would argue that it is a near perfect representation of a GTO. Far more "factory correct" than 90+% of the '64 GTOs that remain and DID get equipped with the GTO option from the factory.

Yet the Pontiac hobby seems to consistently ignore the intrinsic value of otherwise exceptional cars and places an enormous value on the PHS document evidence.

There are examples galore. A '69 Firebird convertible might be restored to an absolutely stunning and flawless example of a TA. But if the VIN & the PHS don't check out, the car would probably sell for 10% of a "real" one in the same condition. If a "real" one turned up with a Chevy big block in it, rust everywhere, and missing the original hood, somebody would undoubtedly pay 6 figures to acquire it. Yet a stunning recreation might have trouble finding a taker at $40K.

Fine1965, the answer to your question really depends on what is important to you.

If you are concerned with the value of an investment, you'd do well to document whether a car you are considering is a "real" GTO. If you are interested in knowing exactly what makes a '65 GTO a GTO, there really isn't all that much as 65gto69 already pointed out.

1. Has to be a 389 engine, only way to get a 389 was to order the GTO option.
2. Distinctive hood with decorative hood scoop.
3. Specific shocks & springs.
4. Thicker front stabilizer bar (available for non-GTOs as option).
5. Dual exhaust (std. also for 4 bbl 326 and available for non-GTO as option for 2 bbl 326).
6. Specific GTO exterior & interior badging.
7. Red line tires mounted on GTO only 6" wide steel wheels (although a large percentage of '64 & probably '65 GTOs got the no cost option White Sidewall tires instead).

I am way less familiar with the '65 than the '64. In '64, the GTO used the tall core support in all cases, a non-GTO only got the tall core support when equipped with factory A/C. Not sure if that was still the case in '65 however.

Most other options were available in any Lemans with or without the GTO option. The most interesting '65 option that was ONLY offered in combination with the GTO option (and also required the GTO Tri-Power Engine option) was the Special Order close ratio Muncie 4 spd transmission.

My list is intended to demonstrate that the GTO option really wasn't all that exotic as far as content goes.

One last thought. A little different wrinkle than what 65gto69 mentioned about swapping a real GTO VIN onto a Lemans. Some of us have come across a number of very real factory '64 & '65 GTOs that were undoubtedly stolen when new. As was the practice back then, the thief could easily "launder" the theft by the expedient of swapping a VIN tag from a similar wrecked '65 Pontiac A body onto the just stolen GTO.

The result is a GTO that exists today with a VIN that might show that it was originally a Lemans or a Tempest. Or perhaps the VIN shows it was built at the Kansas City Plant but the Data Plate (the thief had no reason to swap the Data Plate) shows a car built at the Pontiac Plant. It might be a Hardtop VIN on a post sedan Sports Coupe.

The GTO was a popular car. So it stands to reason that they were frequent theft targets. And no surprise that some of these cars have survived to this day.

These cars are shunned in the hobby. But they can be readily proven as "real" GTOs. And in most cases, assuming one wants to go to the trouble, the original VIN can be discerned, if from nowhere else, then by the VIN stamp on the frame (expect to pull the body off to find it).

Such cars could have an interesting, albeit sordid, history. But the general Pontiac hobby simply chooses to devalue such cars or ignore them. Usually for the wrong reason. The cause for concern would be if the original VIN was uncovered, the car rightfully still belongs to the original victim owner, or if covered by Insurance, the Title passed to the Insurance Co. But most hobbyists are clueless about that, they simply rely on the PHS and believe the car must be a "fake".

The PHS is a good starting point. But that is only the first baby step for establishing what the car is and what it might be worth. After that, there are numerous things you can check before you decide what the car might be worth to you.

A '65 Lemans Sports Coupe willl have the VIN prefix 237275 with or without the GTO option. All GTOs were V8 equipped so the 1st digit after the 7th character Plant code must be a 1 (could also be a 2 or 3 for later cars built at the Pontiac Plant) to identify the V8 engine type. A 6 would identify a 6 cyl engine type (keeping in mind that a 6 cyl VIN tag could have been swapped to a stolen GTO to launder it).

If the 5N exists on the Data Plate (as Tom mentions, this will only be true for Pontiac Plant & KC Plant builds and a missing 5N on even those cars is not proof positive of a non-GTO) that is a good sign. Baltimore also used the 5 Group coding system but did not code them on the Data Plate, but if you found the Fisher Body Trim Manifest left somewhere in the car, the N code in the 5th Group boxes would confirm the GTO option.

Starting with the frame, there are very few unique GTO parts, 90% of the parts used to build a GTO were the same parts used to build a non-GTO. By the way, this is also true for all years, the only thing that sets the '66-'71 GTOs apart is the GTO specific 42 Model Series coding in the VIN. Otherwise, there are essentially as few differences between a '66 GTO and a '66 Lemans as between a '65 GTO and a '65 Lemans.

In '65, Fisher Body assembled a GTO Body Assembly as a deviation from a standard content Lemans Body Assembly. In '66, Fisher Body had a standard recipe for a 42 Series GTO Body Assembly, so it was no longer assembled as a "special" build.

For those of us that love the '64 or '65 GTO, one could say that the '66-'71 GTOs were less "special" than the '64-'65 as a consequence!

Since so many more '66 GTOs were built, I'm not so sure it is that much easier to "fake" a '64-'65. The VIN tag or Data Plate coding mismatch would be more obvious on a '66, but tag swaps could fix that and a "loose" '66 GTO VIN tag is probably easier to find (not that I'm advocating such a thing, just challenging the idea that a '64-'65 is any easier to "fake").

For me personally, I admire anybody that is able to restore a GTO to nut & bolt perfection. Whether the PHS or VIN tag shows the car to be a factory GTO is less important to me than it is to other hobbyists.

And I am also fascinated by GTOs such as Tom & Keith are fortunate to own that have such exceptional known histories.

Hope this helps.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Not a problem for me as I keep what I have, and don't worry too much about making money on the thing after 45 years.

Even when my car was new (to me), as I received it, the PHS did not match the vehicle. Some of the mods were probably made by the Pontiac Zone Office. PHS said Power Brakes - car as received never had power brakes installed. (among other things)

The 5N deal statement put out by Year One has caused tons of issues for cars built BY THE FACTORY without the 5N on the data plate. In some cases people passed up perfectly valid correct GTOs:
(Fremont and Baltimore Cars).

Think to remember, Year One was not perfect, PHS is not perfect as PHS only goes by what A Human Being put on the sheets. Course we know Humans Never make mistakes.

Tom Vaught

my two-barrel '69 GTO ragtop was numbers-matching front to back....yet PHS had it as a 350hp car. Also had fixed headlights but provisions for hide-aways were installed on the line. I bought it from the elderly original owner so I am confident that this was not done outside of the factory. Anyway...still better than nothing...just don't take it as gospel. JMHO. Ron

[Jerry H.]

Lots of good info here. Just one note. 64's & 65's are easier to fake or clone over 66's because their is no welding involved. (Except maybe to weld up the extra holes from the louvers and the Lemans letters). You don't have to change out the rear taillight panel in a 64 or 65 as you would in a 66 or 67. Everything is bolt on. I cloned a 65 convertible back around 1990; it was a Baltimore car, and absolutely no one knew it was a clone until I told them. I had a lot of fun in that car for not a lot of money. I sure wish I had it back. Clones don't bother me a bit as long as they are done right and the owner is honest.

[GTOnly70]

Originally Posted by John V.

I

Yet the Pontiac hobby seems to consistently ignore the intrinsic value of otherwise exceptional cars and places an enormous value on the PHS document evidence.

No, the "Pontiac hobby," like the rest of the automobile hobby, places a premium value on AUTHENTICITY. Come to think of it, AUTHENTICITY is what ALL "collectible" hobbies place a premium value on. It's either the real McCoy or it isn't and values are assigned accordingly. It's not that hard to understand.

Indeed, most of the "intrinsic" value of collector cars is based on authenticity and originality.

in·trin·sic (n-trnzk, -sk)

ADJECTIVE: Of or relating to the essential nature of a thing; inherent; genuine.

[GTO JOHN]

Nice post John V. Lots of good info there including the old school car theft laundering, something that I had not thought of, yet most likely is very true.

[bigpop]

I absolutely agree with GTOnly70,either it is,or it isn't.Look at other hobbies,like coins,fine art,stamp collecting to name a few.National show winning cars are sold at a premium,above price page values,and often w/o advertising them.It's almost like an underground market passed by collectors who "tire" of the same cars and exchange them by word of mouth.
I have seen some exceptional cars utilizing word of mouth.If you were very wealthy,would you advertise an asset that has tremendous value,to the general public?
Would you buy a forged Picasso,1933 Double Eagle,etc.Nope. bigpop Larry B.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote by GTOnly70:

"AUTHENTICITY is what ALL "collectible" hobbies place a premium value on. It's either the real McCoy or it isn't and values are assigned accordingly." Quote

My Opinions to follow:

The "premium value" deal always comes from people who want to sell stuff. Most of the people who desire to KEEP STUFF could give a "Rats Butt" about Premium Value.

Same deal goes with sellers of stolen art or artifacts. They think that having the real deal is more important than how they got it. Even if it was stolen from a museum years ago during a war.

I personally will never be very wealthy, Larry so I do not need to be part of a "underground market" dealing in "assets that have tremendous value".

I am not into the "collectible" hobbies" but I will say that 99% of all
cars that are National Show Winners are not AUTHENTIC. ("what ALL "collectible" hobbies place a premium value on") compared to what actually came down the GM line. The paint is too good, the detailing is far better than was actually built, there is no overspray, the "seam" lines are perfect. The chrome is perfect, etc.

Someone who saw the cars, for example in 1964-65 like Keith S and I did, KNOWS BETTER. You can talk all you want but people today expect "better than reality" at any car show that the vehicle is displayed at. The car at the Henry Ford Museum (65 GTO) is NOT perfect but it truly represents reality vs the car show examples and the "AUTHENTIC" restorations.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

I do not know if Bill Ryder is out there in the world any longer. If he
is I hope he is doing well.

His 64 GTO Convertible was a National Show Winner. That car was earlier involved in a terrible trailer accident and wounded badly.

He had the car completely rebuilt, better than new. The year he won the National Event he had me do his Tri-Power Carburetors. Part of the process I did was to "bootleg" the castings back into Rochester Products through a friend of mine and have them redipped in the factory chemical solutions. At the end of the day it came down to the Judges having to decide which car of two exceptional cars was more correct. They picked Bill's car. The Judges did not know why but they said the carbs looked "more factory looking"

Mind you it took a lot more than just the carb work to win the National Show but my point is the Judges were looking for Reality vs the mods made by 99% of the restorers who are doing their best to represent what they THINK the cars looked like.

There is never a 100% guarantee, fine65, that you will ever be buying a REAL GTO. People can help you with identification stuff, you can look at date codes on glass, VIN numbers on frames, etc BUT most "GTOs" today are not 100% correct, I know my car is not 100% correct after 45 years in this world. Too many things have happened to the car over that period of time.

Tom Vaught

[bigpop]

The fact of the matter is collectors of high value things,whatever they are,place a premium on authenticity,period.I didn't make up the rules,they were established long ago,by the market.
I am on disability,so I don't make a fortune either.Before my accident,I was making an OK living.The people who buy high value "stuff" do so because ,historically,they appreciate in value.That's how people make money on collectibles.That's what sauvy folks do,if their intention is to make money.
I know Bill Ryder from Lincolshire,91,and he told me the story.His car was gorgeous.If there is no such thing as a true GTO,or all original,or whatever,the fact is,he won a show,judged to be the best,by so called,those in the know,to prepresent the 64 GTO as it was.If one doesn't exist in theory,or debate,it is a representation of one,there for has a value.The buyers determine markets,by whether they buy,or not.It is all perception,not reality.It is PERCEIVED to be the best.That's how it works.
You or I percieve that Scott Tiemann is the best restorer of Pontiacs,for example,but in reality,is he?Who the f... knows,as long as we perceive him to be,what else matters?
In the British car hobby,a restorer of these cars,a friend of mine,said some shows insist that stone chips,etc,remain,drips,fisheyes,etc.Corvette restorers,reproduce drips,overspray,etc.in restoration.Pontiacs have gone to perfectly restored,like the factory that day put the best parts,had the best day of their assembly lives,etc.If this is PERCIEVED by buyers or the market for Pontiac GTO's to be the best available.And judged so,what difference does it make? The fact is these cars,rightly or wrongly,are the high value cars! I can't afford them,but I don't get indignant,or envious of those who have money,lots of it.The reality,they can probably expect appreciation on their investment over time.That's how money is made in some quarters.Most cars are original,until the first visit to the shop,when stuff is replaced,An all original car will hardly ever win Best Of Show,if it still has all factory parts,because paint oxidizes,chips occur,flash rusting is inevitable.Maybe Best Original,but how much value do these cars have,in the open market? Some of us say they are extremely valuable ,for obvious reasons.The collector market is different today on Classic cars,i.e.GTO's and other muscle cars.You or I and our opinions do not matter.The perception of the buyers in the market do count. Think advertising and it's tricks here.
Why don't you offer to be a judge at the national shows? You could help other judges recognize authenticity,factory original etc.You are an asset to the hobby.At least write or suggest things to look for,or recommend areas or parts to look for as original?
I was not talking about stolen artifacts,art,by underground,I meant word of mouth,not advertised,talk between people who are interested in a particular field.
Your "welcome to Chicago 'protection' tactics" is a perception,have you worked in a precinct in Chicago,a polling place,a ward? Nope,it's a characature,stereotype,that you have picked up on in your life.What does that mean,anyway?I have lived here all my life,and I do not understand your little '' tag" line.
My one of my friends,Kip Bishop,drove his new 65 GTO to my house,and we used to get around all the time in it.I have seen the originals,and remmeber them,so what?

[Tom Vaught]

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]The fact of the matter is collectors of high value things,whatever they are,place a premium on authenticity,period.I didn't make up the rules,they were established long ago,by the market.

"High Value" #1

I am on disability,so I don't make a fortune either.Before my accident,I was making an OK living.The people who buy high value "stuff" do so because ,historically,they appreciate in value.

High Value #2

That's how people make money on collectibles.That's what sauvy folks do,if their intention is to make money.

So your whole purpose in the Pontiac/ "Other" trades is to solely make money because you are a "sauvy" guy, larry?

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]

I know Bill Ryder from Lincolshire,91,and he told me the story.His car was gorgeous.If there is no such thing as a true GTO,or all original,or whatever,the fact is,he won a show,judged to be the best,by so called,those in the know,to prepresent the 64 GTO as it was.If one doesn't exist in theory,or debate,it is a representation of one,there for has a value. QUOTE]

So he told you I did the carbs for him?

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]

The buyers determine markets,by whether they buy,or not.It is all perception,not reality.It is PERCEIVED to be the best.That's how it works.
You or I percieve that Scott Tiemann is the best restorer of Pontiacs,for example,but in reality,is he?Who the f... knows,as long as we perceive him to be,what else matters? QUOTE]

I knew Scott Tieman when he was doing Restorations "part time". I guess it is different when you see a guy become successful over the years and able to make a nice living for his wife and child. I personally care more about the man vs his 'famous" reputation.

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]

In the British car hobby,a restorer of these cars,a friend of mine,said some shows insist that stone chips, etc,remain,drips,fisheyes,etc.Corvette restorers,reproduce drips,overspray,etc.in restoration.

Pontiacs have gone to perfectly restored,like the factory that day put the best parts,had the best day of their assembly lives,etc.If this is PERCIEVED by buyers or the market for Pontiac GTO's to be the best available.And judged so,what difference does it make? The fact is these cars,rightly or wrongly,are the high value cars! QUOTE]

High Value #3

It is a PIECE OF METAL Larry, nothing more, nothing less.

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]

I can't afford them,but I don't get indignant,or envious of those who have money,lots of it.The reality,they can probably expect appreciation on their investment over time.That's how money is made in some quarters. QUOTE]

You really are hung up on that money deal aren't you Larry?

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]

Most cars are original,until the first visit to the shop,when stuff is replaced,An all original car will hardly ever win Best Of Show,if it still has all factory parts,because paint oxidizes,chips occur,flash rusting is inevitable.Maybe Best Original,but how much value do these cars have,in the open market? QUOTE]

High Value #4

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]

Some of us say they are extremely valuable ,for obvious reasons.The collector market is different today on Classic cars,i.e.GTO's and other muscle cars.You or I and our opinions do not matter.The perception of the buyers in the market do count. Think advertising and it's tricks here.
QUOTE]

I don't pay much attention to advertising and "tricks" or the people who think the average guy on the street is a "Rube with money" and it is their duty to relieve him of his money because if they don't someone else will.

[QUOTE=bigpop;3669838]

Why don't you offer to be a judge at the national shows? You could help other judges recognize authenticity,factory original etc.You are an asset to the hobby.At least write or suggest things to look for,or recommend areas or parts to look for as original? QUOTE]

I know how the "game" is played Larry. I saw it played years ago at several events. It goes like this: KNOWLEDGABLE Judges are hard to find. Most KNOWLEDGABLE people belong to clubs. So a club "offers" to Judge a National Event. The members usually have a variety of cars and the "club guys" know more than the average guy. So they volunteer.

Now you can't have a guy who owns a 64-65 GTO judge his own class so he gets moved to the 66-67 GTOs. Same deal with the 66-67 Guy going to judge the 68-69 GTOs. At some point all of the club members are assigned a specific group of vehicles.

Now everyone knows you can get more club members IF your cars are always winning shows. That "Wood" is important. So the 66-67 guy votes for the 68-69 club members cars as he knows all about that car and HOW MUCH MONEY AND EFFORT went into it. Same deal with the guy judging the 64-65 GTOs.

At the end of the day, guess what? The judge's club takes home the majority of the "wood". Funny how that worked. Saw it happen several times.

No, Larry, I have no desire to be a Judge. I was an International F-1 Technical Inspector (Scruitineer) at one time. That was more rewarding.

Originally Posted by bigpop

I was not talking about stolen artifacts,art,by underground,I meant word of mouth,not advertised,talk between people who are interested in a particular field. QUOTE]

One of the "favored few" deemed worthy to purchase a High Value thing"

Some history for you, Larry, you need to read more:

"A political machine (or simply machine) is a disciplined political organization in which an authoritative boss or small group commands the support of a corps of supporters (usually campaign workers), who receive rewards for their efforts. Although these elements are common to most political parties and organizations, they are essential to political machines, which rely on hierarchy and rewards for political power. Machines sometimes have a political boss, often rely on patronage, the spoils system, "behind-the-scenes" control, and longstanding political ties within the structure of a representative democracy. Machines typically are organized on a permanent basis instead of for a single election or event."

"the so-called 'independent' voter is foolish to assume that a political machine is run solely on good will, or patronage. For it is not only a machine; it is an army. And in any organization as in any army, there must be discipline."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Daley

"Richard Joseph Daley (May 15, 1902–December 20, 1976) served for 21 years as the undisputed Democratic boss of Chicago and is considered by historians to be the "last of the big city bosses."

"Daley had two bases of power, serving as a Committeeman and Chairman of the Cook County Democratic Central Committee from 1953, and as mayor of Chicago from 1955. He used both positions until his death in 1976 to dominate party and civic affairs."

"Daley's well-organized Democratic political machine was often accused of corruption and though many of Daley's subordinates were jailed, Daley was never personally formally accused of corruption."

Just because a guy never went to jail does not mean that he wasn't a crook, Larry.

"During his administration, Daley ruled the city with an iron hand and dominated the political arena of the city and, to a lesser extent, that of the entire state." "Their eldest son, Richard M. Daley, was elected mayor of Chicago in 1989, and has served in that position ever since." "Another son, John P. Daley, is a member of the Cook County Board of Commissioners."

Mr Obama is a part of the "Chicago Machine" and to believe otherwise is naive.

Originally Posted by bigpop

My one of my friends,Kip Bishop,drove his new 65 GTO to my house,and we used to get around all the time in it.I have seen the originals,and remmeber them,so what?

Big difference between "remembering" and being able to walk out into the garage and see something you bought 45 years earlier.

Did you get my check?

Tom Vaught