[KS circutguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7l4wR1zhbc
Fremantle Hwy: Mercedes EV battery burns ONE MONTH later | Auto Expert John Cadogan.
Full kudos to Hazmat Heinrich and his mates for tackling this floating toxic hellscape. They didn't cause it, but they're the ones tasked with cleaning it up to prevent a sunken wreck leaching cobalt into Dutch coastal waters for decades.

[The Champ]

It appears that Tesla has been overcharging for their products, rather dramatically prior to this year.



In 9 months, Tesla has dropped the price of the Model S by $30,000 and the Model X by $41,000.

If you bought an S or X a year ago, your vehicle has depreciated an extra $30 - 41,000, over and above the normal depreciation of a one year old car.

The less expensive Models 3 and Y have also received significant discounts in the last year.

My niece and her husband bought a Model 3 last year and they have suffered hyper depreciation on their "green new deal" vehicle.

[kingbuzzo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irl/comm...irl/?rdt=52911

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by The Champ

It appears that Tesla has been overcharging for their products, rather dramatically prior to this year.



In 9 months, Tesla has dropped the price of the Model S by $30,000 and the Model X by $41,000.

If you bought an S or X a year ago, your vehicle has depreciated an extra $30 - 41,000, over and above the normal depreciation of a one year old car.

The less expensive Models 3 and Y have also received significant discounts in the last year.

My niece and her husband bought a Model 3 last year and they have suffered hyper depreciation on their "green new deal" vehicle.

Being devils advocate here. Wasn't the big 3 also guilty of the same thing? For years they sold trucks at high prices, then at the end of they model year, offer $10,11,12,000 rebates on their trucks. They "overcharged" their customers for 9 months, then offer huge discounts. They didn't have to build a huge overage of trucks. The real value of those american trucks were the discounted price.

[Stuart]

I also read recently that the price Tesla has been paying for batteries has dropped significantly, which could be a partial explanation for the drop in the price of their cars.

[fyrffytr1]

Have you read about the Teslas catching fire after getting wet from salt water after hurricane Idalia hit Florida?

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by necdb3

Being devils advocate here. Wasn't the big 3 also guilty of the same thing? For years they sold trucks at high prices, then at the end of they model year, offer $10,11,12,000 rebates on their trucks. They "overcharged" their customers for 9 months, then offer huge discounts. They didn't have to build a huge overage of trucks. The real value of those american trucks were the discounted price.

A 10,000+ rebate has definitely happened at year end before by the big 3 when the new models with new features/styling came out.

But this was a $10,000+ rebate in January that escalated to a $30 - 41,000 discount by year end.

Tesla doesn't change their styling from year to year. A 2024 Model S or X is still the same looking vehicle as the first one's that rolled down the production line.

As to battery pricing coming down (Stuart's post), that doesn't account for a $30 - 40,000 price drop in 9 months. It might account hundreds or maybe a couple thousand dollars, but that's about it.

[Stuart]

I saw the information about battery price in an article that described how Tesla is in a price war with Chinese electric vehicle manufacturers. It said the price they pay for batteries from their supplier has dropped 20%. I don't know how that percentage translates into dollars, but I assume it's a pretty substantial amount.

Tesla did just announce an refreshed version of their Model 3, it's referred to as the Highland. My understanding is it's currently for sale in some other countries, but isn't available in the US just yet. From Wikipedia:

Tesla announced a major design refresh of the Model 3 on September 1, 2023, bringing a longer driving range, along with a restyled exterior and interior.

Tesla says the refreshed Model 3 will have about a 10% improvement in range, largely from a more aerodynamic front-end which led to a drag coefficient of Cd=0.219, an improvement from the prior design's Cd=0.225. On the interior several new features were added including an 8-inch touchscreen for rear seat passengers, ventilated front seats, a 17-speaker sound system (up from 14), customizable interior accent lighting, a larger 21-cubic-foot (594 L) rear trunk (up from 19.8 cu ft [561 L]), and a new steering wheel without turn signal and gear selector stalks. The touchscreen for rear seat passengers and the steering wheel without stalks are changes that were previously implemented on the Model S and X during their "Palladium" refresh.

[kingbuzzo]

I wonder if Gina will kick him out like the iPone...

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/07/i...ban/index.html

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Stuart

I saw the information about battery price in an article that described how Tesla is in a price war with Chinese electric vehicle manufacturers. It said the price they pay for batteries from their supplier has dropped 20%. I don't know how that percentage translates into dollars, but I assume it's a pretty substantial amount.

Tesla did just announce an refreshed version of their Model 3, it's referred to as the Highland. My understanding is it's currently for sale in some other countries, but isn't available in the US just yet. From Wikipedia:

[I]Tesla announced a major design refresh of the Model 3 on September 1, 2023, bringing a longer driving range, along with a restyled exterior and interior.

20% drop in Tesla's battery cost doesn't equate to all that much. Retail they are what, $10,000? Tesla's cost is much less than that, so my original premise of hundreds to maybe a couple thousand is probably right.

Tesla sold the first Model 3 in 2017. A slight 'refresh' after 6 - 7 years is not a big deal.

2017 Model 3



2024 Model 3



A new bumper cover is about the only visual external change...

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by The Champ

A 10,000+ rebate has definitely happened at year end before by the big 3 when the new models with new features/styling came out.

But this was a $10,000+ rebate in January that escalated to a $30 - 41,000 discount by year end.

Tesla doesn't change their styling from year to year. A 2024 Model S or X is still the same looking vehicle as the first one's that rolled down the production line.

As to battery pricing coming down (Stuart's post), that doesn't account for a $30 - 40,000 price drop in 9 months. It might account hundreds or maybe a couple thousand dollars, but that's about it.

You can attempt to justify it however you want but all manufacturers are guilty of the same thing.

[getmygoat]

What people don't get about Tesla and EVs in general is that the industry is supply constrained.

When you can't get all the batteries you need, you charge more $$ for the cars... no sense selling out half way through the year.

That explains why tesla was charging more for X and S. They didn't have enough batteries to sell more of them. The S/X use more battery cells per vehicle than the 3/Y. Thus, they can sell more cars by putting the limited # of battery cells in 3/Y, and make more $$$ and contribute to their goal of accelerating the transition to sustainable energy.

This year, a lot more battery capacity has come on line via Panasonic's new Japanese battery factory and more supply from China. In addition, Tesla's home grown battery technology (4680) produced in Austin and Fremont, is ramping.

This allows price reduction of S/X so as to consume the new supply of batteries, ultimately bringing costs down via volume and wright's law. https://cmte.ieee.org/futuredirectio...9/wrights-law/.

This is the game. Drive EV supply chain volume up, and price down, thus giving Tesla a competitive advantage and accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy.

We are transitioning from early adopters to mass adoption. You are going to see EV volume explode in the next 5 years.

[Trevor78]

Constant mentioning of Tesla and similar only reveal how threatened you feel by these cars. Ignore them. They go like the clappers, but geez they're ugly and have no soul. Move on.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by getmygoat

What people don't get about Tesla and EVs in general is that the industry is supply constrained.

When you can't get all the batteries you need, you charge more $$ for the cars... no sense selling out half way through the year.

That explains why tesla was charging more for X and S. They didn't have enough batteries to sell more of them. The S/X use more battery cells per vehicle than the 3/Y. Thus, they can sell more cars by putting the limited # of battery cells in 3/Y, and make more $$$ and contribute to their goal of accelerating the transition to sustainable energy.

This year, a lot more battery capacity has come on line via Panasonic's new Japanese battery factory and more supply from China. In addition, Tesla's home grown battery technology (4680) produced in Austin and Fremont, is ramping.

This allows price reduction of S/X so as to consume the new supply of batteries, ultimately bringing costs down via volume and wright's law. https://cmte.ieee.org/futuredirectio...9/wrights-law/.

This is the game. Drive EV supply chain volume up, and price down, thus giving Tesla a competitive advantage and accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy.

We are transitioning from early adopters to mass adoption. You are going to see EV volume explode in the next 5 years.

Using the word explode and EV in the same sentence is fitting.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by necdb3

You can attempt to justify it however you want but all manufacturers are guilty of the same thing.

All manufacturers haven't dropped their prices $41,000 in 9 months.

Tesla is the only one.

Next excuse?

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Trevor78

Constant mentioning of Tesla and similar only reveal how threatened you feel by these cars. Ignore them. They go like the clappers, but geez they're ugly and have no soul. Move on.

The people pushing the ev are far more annoying than the vehicle itself.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by getmygoat

We are transitioning from early adopters to mass adoption. You are going to see EV volume explode in the next 5 years.

If we are on the verge of an explosion in EV sales, why are we subsidizing the sale of EV's so much?

What you have is (for the most part), is people that can afford to buy whatever they want being swayed to buy an EV because of the tax incentives.

Most average people can't afford an EV, even with the incentives, even after a 30 - 40% price drop before the government incentives.

Tesla's dropping their prices because of greatly increased competition in the marketplace, but EV's are piling up on dealers lots (both the new car lots and the used car lots).

Unsold electric cars are piling up on dealer lots

https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/uns...on-dealer-lots

"Details: The nationwide supply of EVs in stock has swelled nearly 350% this year, to more than 92,000 units.

That's a 92-day supply — roughly three months' worth of EVs, and nearly twice the industry average.

For comparison, dealers have a relatively low 54 days' worth of gasoline-powered vehicles in inventory as they rebound from pandemic-related supply chain interruptions.

In normal times, there's usually a 70-day supply."

So ICE sales are outpacing EV sales dramatically, despite the government incentives. The EV's are readily available, but discriminating buyers aren't following the government's push for them.

[KS circutguy]

We are transitioning from early adopters to mass adoption. You are going to see EV volume explode in the next 5 years.

Oh brother...
Dream on.

[getmygoat]

Originally Posted by The Champ

All manufacturers haven't dropped their prices $41,000 in 9 months.

Tesla is the only one.

Next excuse?

Tesla is the only one with a large increase in battery supply, as described above.

[getmygoat]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Tesla's dropping their prices because of greatly increased competition in the marketplace

This is false. Tesla will sell ~30% more evs in 2023 than in 2022. There is no competition. Tesla will sell ~1.8M BEV this year. No one else is even close. Volkswagen is on track to sell ~500k.

Originally Posted by The Champ

So ICE sales are outpacing EV sales dramatically, despite the government incentives. The EV's are readily available, but discriminating buyers aren't following the government's push for them.

ICE still has advantages in terms of refuel/recharge time for long distance driving.. and applications like trucks. This will change over the coming years.

No new product goes from 0% market share to 100% market share instantaneously. Even after the first gasoline tractor was introduced, people used horses for many years.