[Caster1]

Guys,

On Friday the new torque monster 461 caused the first running gear casualty. My stock M20W Muncie went BOOM on a 2-3 shift…. Or more accurately crunch, crunch. Lost 1-2-3 gears, looks like the headset.

My plan was to upgrade the running gear, it looks like it will be sooner than later. I’m looking at a couple of different options and would appreciate feedback and opinions (I’ve gotten great advice here!!), including other options.

569 TQ, 559 HP.

Option #1 – A new M23Z (or M22W) Auto Gear Muncie and a ready to install Quick Performance 9” Ford rear end. New clutch, billet flywheel and SFI bellhousing.

Option #2 - A built BW Super T10 built by a drivetrain specialist for a big name NASCAR team. He says it will be bullet proof. He also would build and setup a new Moser 12 bolt rear end. Would also go with new bell housing, clutch and flywheel.

I am more familiar with the Muncie transmissions, never owned a BW. The specialist said the Super T10 would be basically what they run in the race cars, super smooth and very tough. I have also heard and read great things about the new Auto Gear Muncie transmissions.

So, I’d like to hear the pros and cons of the Auto Gear Muncie Vs the Super T10.
Thanks in advance!!

Tommy

[Formulajones]

I wouldn't even mess with any of the 4 speeds. Would be relatively easy to just swap in a TKO600 and enjoy the benefits of overdrive. The cost of the M23Z or a built T-10 with good stuff you're thinking about is nearly a TKO purchase anyway. Makes the decision real easy for me.

[tom s]

Sounds like you broke the main drive and cluster giving you only 4th gear.I believe the big RPM drop is going into 3rd so too much TQ for it.Not sure what body style you have,if a first gen bird EZ swap to a TKO 600,other pontiac not so much.Tom

[JLMounce]

Agree with Formulajones on this one. If you're looking at a new M23z, the cost difference to a TKO600 isn't that big. By going this route you can keep a close ratio gear spread and go with a deeper rear gear for better acceleration and more economy when cruising. With the .64 overdrive of the TKO600 you can stuff a 3.73 in the back and cruise at 75mph at around 2500 rpm.

The TKO600 is basically a bolt in deal with your current setup. Just need a few minor things like BOP bell housing adapter etc.

[Caster1]

Thanks guys. I had considered a tremec 5 speed but everything I read says you have to cut the tunnel to make it fit. The car is a nicely restored 66 GTO and I'd rather not have to hack up the floor.

Tommy

[tom s]

Why any adapter?My 600 and 500 bolted right up to a pontiac bellhousing?He might need a new disc if his muncie was a 10 spline.The drive shaft will have to be shortened with a new yoke and maybe the floor cut to fit.The only 5 speed OD I know of is the McLeod that is pretty much a bolt in.Tom

[Half-Inch Stud]

Get something strong with OVERDRIVE

[64speed]

Tommy if I was you and wanted to keep the 4 speed I would buy one from Jody’s transmission and get the 9 inch from quick performance but you already know that LOL. Now if it were my car I’d be cutting the car for the TKO600. It’s only sheet metal that can always be put back if you want to

[wbnapier]

I blew up my Muncie and replaced it with an Autogear Case Muncie M22W from Paul Cangialosi. I think the delivered price was $2200 or something.

To have gone with a 5-speed would have been at least a $1,000 more. I was under the impression I would need a new bellhousing, crossmember, and change the drive shaft length. Tunnel mods were a possibility, and I didn't want to get into that.

[Caster1]

Originally Posted by 64speed

Tommy if I was you and wanted to keep the 4 speed I would buy one from Jody’s transmission and get the 9 inch from quick performance but you already know that LOL. Now if it were my car I’d be cutting the car for the TKO600. It’s only sheet metal that can always be put back if you want to

Yep, I know and appreciate the advice!!

[Caster1]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

I blew up my Muncie and replaced it with an Autogear Case Muncie M22W from Paul Cangialosi. I think the delivered price was $2200 or something.

To have gone with a 5-speed would have been at least a $1,000 more. I was under the impression I would need a new bellhousing, crossmember, and change the drive shaft length. Tunnel mods were a possibility, and I didn't want to get into that.

Thanks!! I feel the same way about the cutting the tunnel on my car.

[wbnapier]

I need to mention that I was doing this swap on the floor of a one-car garage, no lift. Tunnel modifications were a bridge too far and I simply didn't have the cash for the a speed.

[Formulajones]

This is why the 5-speeds make more sense. $2200 for a 4 speed is crazy. I understand people gotta eat but a TKO600 is $2300-$2400. You get a lower first gear setup, and an overdrive to boot.

Converting a car that's a stick is pretty straight forward. The only additional expense would be obtaining the proper yoke and shortening your driveshaft. Local shop does that here for ~$150. A speedo adapter and a shifter and you're in business.. You don't need a bell housing, and if you have mild skills you can modify your own cross member. If you are already using a 26 spline clutch setup, then you don't even need a new disc.

When it's done the car is more tractable in all conditions. I've never had a customer that said they hated it, lol. Only complaint I've heard is that they are mad they didn't do it sooner.

[stickboy]

I have been driving an OD trans since the late 90's, I could never go back

You need a 600-700 lb/ft transmission, the 10 bolt is next to go..

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by stickboy

I have been driving an OD trans since the late 90's, I could never go back

You need a 600-700 lb/ft transmission, the 10 bolt is next to go..

Exactly. And yes on cost.

Though the 2nd gens do need floor pan mods. Luckily, they are not bad to do, and using a pre-fabbed insert makes it even easier. Once the carpet and console are back in place, you will never know it was done, if done properly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koxDvd8vjKE

You will kick yourself after you do a 4 speed, knowing that a 5 speed is not much more. Once you grenade the rear, you will be in a gear ratio quandary, and you will end up in some type of compromise. In the end, it will cost more to do a 4 speed.

Build it towards your future goals, and not immediate goals, or you will have to go back and do it again. = Wasted Money

.

[61-63]

Get the M23z or W

[Caster1]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

This is why the 5-speeds make more sense. $2200 for a 4 speed is crazy. I understand people gotta eat but a TKO600 is $2300-$2400. You get a lower first gear setup, and an overdrive to boot.

Converting a car that's a stick is pretty straight forward. The only additional expense would be obtaining the proper yoke and shortening your driveshaft. Local shop does that here for ~$150. A speedo adapter and a shifter and you're in business.. You don't need a bell housing, and if you have mild skills you can modify your own cross member. If you are already using a 26 spline clutch setup, then you don't even need a new disc.

When it's done the car is more tractable in all conditions. I've never had a customer that said they hated it, lol. Only complaint I've heard is that they are mad they didn't do it sooner.

Where are you located?

[Caster1]

OK,

I'm going to expand my search to include the TKO 600. I don't like the idea of cutting the floor but do like the idea of running a little lower rear gear and having the OD 5th...

Decisions, decisions…

Tommy

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Caster1

Where are you located?

Arizona