[JLMounce]

Took a long trip in the car this weekend and met up with Torqhead for a beer. This was the first truly long(ish) journey I've taken with the car. For it's first long distance, sustained high rpm cruising it did well. Steady oil pressure, coolant temps equalized at 195.

The part that's not so great is the cruise rpm at 3300rpm for 65 mph. The 3.73's and short tires make the car a joy around town and when you want to play around, but without an overdrive, traveling long distances is every bit as fatiguing as you would expect.

I've gone back and forth between dropping to a 3.08 or taller gear, swapping to a manual (either overdrive or m23z +3.08) and talking to Dave yesterday really solidifed the fact that I enjoy having the auto in this car and I'm not willing to give up the 3.73's. That means going to an automatic with overdrive.

I'm leaning towards a 4L80e as I've already got a throttle position sensor , but the 700r4 and 200r4 have superior gearing, both in their gear spread as well as in the overdrive.

TH400 2.48 1.48 1.00 2.00
200r4 2.74 1.57 1.00 0.67 2.07
700r4 3.06 1.62 1.00 0.70 2.29
4L60E 3.06 1.62 1.00 0.70 2.29
4L80E 2.48 1.48 1.00 0.75 2.08

The 200r4 for my purposes actually has about the best ratios and it's one of the easier swaps. It's also the most fragile of the group and so building it to live behind a moderate 455 means the cost goes up.

For those of you that have done the swap, which transmission did you go with and why? Did you use a factory transmission, or have it built? Finally, what are everyone's recommendations for a quality builder?

Engine is a moderate 455. as cast KRE D's, roller cam in the 232/238 on 112 range and a torker II manifold. I've never had it dynoed, but could assume 550+ ft lbs.

Car is a 1969 Firebird.

[ponjohn]

I would not consider a 3.06 first gear a benefit. With a 3.06 / 3.73 combo first gear will be useless.

I would simply go with a 4l80e. I would even bet an unrebuilt or stock build would be strong enough for up to 600 ft lbs.

[Steve C.]

Interesting thread on mechanical reasons for picking the 200 4R :

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...highlight=lock


.

[torqhead]

Should have thought of it yesterday, but you're welcome to take my car for a drive. Contrary to what was posted, the 3.06 with 3:73's is not useless, definitely makes moving my 4200 lb car off the line very quickly. My decision on gearing, especially for a street car IMHO, is to decide what RPM you want to run while cruising on the highway. For me I did'n't want to lug the motor along by using 3:08's with an overdrive. I can run on the highway at 85 MPH at just over 2600 RPM with Lockup, as far as I'm concerned it 's the best of both worlds combo. As you know, next week I'm taking it to the track and if I have my traction issue solved I should have some pretty good 60 foot times!

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Interesting thread on mechanical reasons for picking the 200 4R :

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...highlight=lock


.

Thanks that was a good read

Originally Posted by torqhead

Should have thought of it yesterday, but you're welcome to take my car for a drive. Contrary to what was posted, the 3.06 with 3:73's is not useless, definitely makes moving my 4200 lb car off the line very quickly. My decision on gearing, especially for a street car IMHO, is to decide what RPM you want to run while cruising on the highway. For me I did'n't want to lug the motor along by using 3:08's with an overdrive. I can run on the highway at 85 MPH at just over 2600 RPM with Lockup, as far as I'm concerned it 's the best of both worlds combo. As you know, next week I'm taking it to the track and if I have my traction issue solved I should have some pretty good 60 foot times!

My main gearing concern is 2nd. Since this is primarily a street car and one I'd like to get back to some semblance of leasurely track events like Auto-x, it's that second gear that's important as I don't spend as much time in 1st.

[n2ogpsj462]

I went with the 700r and my decision was because of money. I did my swap about 15yrs ago and would've gone with the 4L80 if it weren't for costs and that's even considering I build trans for a living. Mine is pretty stock with all the normal upgrades. Good servo, good band and clutches, she'll etc. It held up VERY well thru my first 400/ra4 cam combo and nitrous with 390s. I went thru it when after I built the 455 and everything was till very clean inside.. Simple freshen up and re-stall and it went behind the 455 for many yrs on a small shot of nitrous. I would call 1st gear fun, not useless with the 390s and would even pull the drivers wheel on the street which was pretty impressive for such a large car only going high 11s however switching to 342s was a very smart move. Very little difference in seat of the pants feel but much better on the highway. Never touched the trans except for another tighter re-stall when I put the turbo on but now first gear sucks.. Too much gear and doesn't want to spool in first until like 4200. Cost have come way down on programmers for the 4l80 and even cores that were outrageous 10 yrs ago so it's on the future list

[torqhead]

[QUOTE=J semblance of leasurely track events like Auto-x, [/QUOTE]

Just say'n, your car is too nice to be using it for Auto-x...

[Navy Horn 16]

I have only made one 1/4 pass with the new transmission (cars kept oiling the track on test and tune night). My previous best with the TH350 was a 12.96. My one and only pass with the Art Carr 200 4R was a 12.75, and it was about 20 degrees hotter than when I made the pass with the new unit.

Driving to the track at 80mph and around 2500rpm and then running in the 12s on street legal tires is pretty cool.

[ponjohn]

Can you order a lockup convertor and disconnect if it chugs?

[torqhead]

Jason, another thought is the 4L80 requires a computer be installed as well which is why I went the 700R4 route. Other things I incorporated was using a B&M switch to control (based on speed) when the lockup activates along with a dual vacuum switch that will deactivate the lockup if you give it a certain amount of throttle, obviously prior to a downshift. If the trans is built right the lockup will literally feel like a 5th gear has been engaged.

The offer is open if you want to drive it and get an idea how it works.

[JLMounce]

I'm not certain I would absolutely require a lockup converter. a 200r4 would be just about 2500 rpm at 80 and an extra couple hundred rpm there wouldn't be an issue. Considering I'm currently cruising 65 at 32-3300 or so.

Just based on the trans controller and the gearing, I'm starting to lean against the 4l80e.

[torqhead]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I'm not certain I would absolutely require a lockup converter. a 200r4 would be just about 2500 rpm at 80 and an extra couple hundred rpm there wouldn't be an issue. Considering I'm currently cruising 65 at 32-3300 or so.

Just based on the trans controller and the gearing, I'm starting to lean against the 4l80e.

I didn't have a lockup requirement either but I'm glad now that I have it. It may be only 2-300 RPM but it makes a difference!

[archerytony]

I have heard alot of good talk about the gear vendor setup

[skedadl]

I went with a Hughes Transmission well-built 200R4 in my '64 Tempest. Now running a 461, around 450-500 ft. lbs. (unverified). Works great, seems to handle the load just fine, and the gearing with 3.23's in the back is just my "speed." 2,100 rpms at 70 miles per hour, and the low transmission first gear really gets things moving. Running a non-lockup converter, no issues there. The 200R4, with the exception of moving the cross-member back 6 inches, is an easy swap.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by archerytony

I have heard alot of good talk about the gear vendor setup

I looked into for my Catalina. It was a cost effective way to add an overdrive until Gear Vendors raised the price on their overdrive units to nearly $3000. Add that to a performance built TH400 then you have spent more than a Jake's 4L80E, converter and PCM. I'm going to use the 4L80E when I install mine. I've seen too many TH200R4s and 700R4 fail, even with all the suggested upgrades.

[JLMounce]

I'm not really interested in a gear vendors unit. The price point isn't significant enough and it's overdrive reduction isn't as nice as a true overdrive transmission. For guys that run taller gears in general, it's probably a good deal, but running steep gears, I want a transmission with a true overdrive.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

I looked into for my Catalina. It was a cost effective way to add an overdrive until Gear Vendors raised the price on their overdrive units to nearly $3000. Add that to a performance built TH400 then you have spent more than a Jake's 4L80E, converter and PCM. I'm going to use the 4L80E when I install mine. I've seen too many TH200R4s and 700R4 fail, even with all the suggested upgrades.

A few years ago I did about a 6 month study of all the popular options to convert a hot rod from a 3 speed automatic to OD. My parameters included doing the conversion only once and not having to remove the transmission/OD unit during my lifetime. After investigating many options my choice would be the 4L80E. I also have one in my 93 K3500 turbo diesel that has 262,000 miles on it. The truck has a turned up pump along with a 4 inch exhaust so it has more power than a bone stock 6.5. It pulls, hauls, plows, drags anything I ask it to without any problems, bone stock. Adding a shift improver kit and a few add ons will make a 4L80E even better for durability.

When a stock 4L80E has nearly the same torque capacity of a heavily modified 200/700, which transmission has the engineering to withstand abuse without replacing every hard part in the transmission? The original engineering of the 200 and 700 transmissions were to be used behind a small V8 or six cylinder with less than 300 lb ft of torque. The 4L80E is 50% more from the beginning at 450 lb ft.

The weight of the 4L80E is roughly 50 lbs higher because it was engineered from the beginning to withstand high torque loads in a heavy vehicle and has much more surface area on clutches and bands to outlast the light duty transmissions. No matter what hard parts you replace internally, the surface area on the wear items cannot be increased because of physical limitations inside the case.

The price of a TCU has come down dramatically in the last 5 years and when you compare the price of a fully modified 200/700 to a 4L80E the price is fairly close. One failure, and rebuild of the light duty transmission will put you way over the price point of the 4L80E conversion. The question is "Do you feel lucky"?

Your car, your money and labor, and ultimately your choice..................

[torqhead]

Just a data point... Don't know what a 4L80 or 200 cost, but my 700R4 built with all the heavy duty goodies inclusive of installation was $2061.

[skedadl]

Originally Posted by torqhead

Just a data point... Don't know what a 4L80 or 200 cost, but my 700R4 built with all the heavy duty goodies inclusive of installation was $2061.

Right about what I've got into the 200R4... If it breaks, I'm heading for a 5 or 6 speed manual anyway so I really don't care.

[HWYSTR455]

CK Performance did my 4L80E, and after about 90k miles, sent it in to be freshened because I am going through the car. It didn't need it, but had it done anyway for piece of mind. Point is, they survive behind power, and then some. You can abuse them, and they live.

E- transmissions are a way better OD experience, can tailor shift points, shift firmness, shift firmness at a given TPS value, gears you want it to lock up in, just to name a few. You just can't do that with a non-E-trans.

Lockup, you want lockup. A good converter does drive the price up some, but really no more than what a good converter for a TH400 is. Lockup at WOT is one thing the non-E-trans doesn't survive long with. And if you're a drag racer, what's the one factor of a converter that most are concerned with? Yeah. Slip. Not with lockup.

With a lockup, you can have a stall of 3200, 3500, 4000 even, and still use it for daily use, even in traffic. You can set your lockup for 3rd and 4th, and above 40 mph, done.

.