[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

The correct way to repair this car, is to use the firewall with all tags attached, and weld it to a good shell. Also, use as many parts that can be salvaged. Hopefully, the frame isn't shot.

This is a true shame, for sure.

Originally Posted by Doug

So? What constitutes a restored 64 GTO? If the car needed a firewall replaced with one from a Lemans and the VIN tag from the GTO was swapped to the replacement firewall, is the "restored" car a real GTO?

If replacement fenders from a Lemans were used, would the car be a real GTO?
Replacement quarter panel? real GTO?
Replacement door? real GTO?
Replacement back half? real GTO?
Replacement left frame rail? real GTO?
Replacement rear deck gutter along top right side? real GTO?
Replacement bumper? real GTO?
Replacement body? real GTO?

Where does it end?

To me, if I own the "parts car" Lemans AND the GTO and have titles to both, if I cut the VIN tag section of the GTO firewall out and put it in the Lemans firewall, cut out a section of the GTO left frame rail and put it in the Lemans frame, cut out all other identifiers (drivetrain, etc) of the GTO and insert them in the Lemans, then I say that the Lemans then becomes the GTO.

I don't know where all of those "secret" identification numbers are on GTO's or Lemans or Tempests are. But after all, the GTO "package" was an option of the Lemans model in 64.

Interesting points.

If you moved the firewall and drivetrain to a donor car, is that considered illegal?

If so, then I guess you keep the firewall in place but replace EVERYTHING else. I mean, you can replace the frame and the car is still the car, VIN and drivetrain and all, right?

All of this assumes you are upfront and not being deceitful about it.

[66_Catalina]

Best way to save this one is someone buy it reasonable, fix a few things then get tired of it and sell it. The next person does the same. Then no one is in it too deep and lots of people can tell stories of the rare GTO they used to own.

[codyyy]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

Interesting points.

If you moved the firewall and drivetrain to a donor car, is that considered illegal?

If so, then I guess you keep the firewall in place but replace EVERYTHING else. I mean, you can replace the frame and the car is still the car, VIN and drivetrain and all, right?

All of this assumes you are upfront and not being deceitful about it.

If I bought this car, I would probably get a better chassis for it and document the build with a chronological order of pictures. If the car is ever to be sold, there is proof that every panel was fixed on the car. That may actually help the value of this car.
I've been into restoring cars, motorcycles, guitars and amps, and so far the general consensus from the enthusiasts of each of these hobbies is quite varied as to what should and should not be done with a project.

[b-man]

Good chance the block has freeze cracks, what might look like a valuable Tri-Power 4-speed block with the correct codes is likely now only a neat coffee table.

Those Tri-Power carb bodies are probably too corroded to save and for sure the throttle bodies are stuck solid.

Engine is for sure stuck, and the amount of corrosion present inside the cylinders might even make sleeving impossible, along with the combustion chambers and ports being too corroded to be able to save the heads.

All of the brake and fuel hard lines are gone right along with the frame.

Sorry guys, this one's not going anywhere except to the scrap yard after someone yanks the drivetrain to explore what if any of it is still salvageable.

Not even in your wildest dreams is this one, looking anywhere near how it looks in its present state, ever going to wow anyone at a car show.

Paying more than a grand for this sorry heap would be a huge gamble, and it might not even be worth that.

[400 4spd.]

The most expensive body repairs are rust repairs. When done correctly on the worst cases it can be astronomically labor intensive. That equals dollars. I always advise people who are classic car shopping to buy the most complete and rust free example that they can afford, especially when looking for a project.
This car is a major fail in that regard. It's 30 years too late. I live in the Carolina's and, like I alluded to early in this thread, this car has been in a harsh coastal environment. The OP has confirmed that himself.
I am in the business of saving old cars, and even if it was given to me, I would lose money fixing it in my own shop.

[MUSLCAH]

You would have to put on your roseary beads,thorn crown and sandals , to bring that one back

[Norwood]

Metalfinnisher would have no problem turning this into a 100 point car

[bird72]

Bentwheelbob should buy it. I think he can molecularly separate the metal composition, kill the rust atoms, fill the voids with new non Chinese metal compunds, and 3D print assist the reconstruct. All without a welder. Go Bob.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by b-man

Good chance the block has freeze cracks, what might look like a valuable Tri-Power 4-speed block with the correct codes is likely now only a neat coffee table.

Those Tri-Power carb bodies are probably too corroded to save and for sure the throttle bodies are stuck solid.

Engine is for sure stuck, and the amount of corrosion present inside the cylinders might even make sleeving impossible, along with the combustion chambers and ports being too corroded to be able to save the heads.

All of the brake and fuel hard lines are gone right along with the frame.

Sorry guys, this one's not going anywhere except to the scrap yard after someone yanks the drivetrain to explore what if any of it is still salvageable.

Not even in your wildest dreams is this one, looking anywhere near how it looks in its present state, ever going to wow anyone at a car show.

Paying more than a grand for this sorry heap would be a huge gamble, and it might not even be worth that.

I couldn't agree more! I love Pontiacs and this WAS a really cool car 50 years ago. The reality is even with the collector value and good options and some original paperwork, this car is a total wreck. Also, it is rare but not super rare. It would seem a much better project car could be purchased for 12-15K and it could then receive a proper restoration and be a good solid car. Really the firewall tag is the only part on this car that won't need serious restoration. It's a terrible shame what some people let happen to their cars. When the guys daughter told the owner the car was ghetto or whatever, it seems that was the straw that broke his back. It became junk to him at that point. Now when he see's or reads that a 64 GTO is worth 50-60K, in his mind he thinks, " well it ran good when I parked it 45 years ago outside. Throw a battery in it and put some gas down the carburetor and it's 1970 again". "Should be worth at least double what it cost new". "clean it up a little, change oil, good to go". Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way.

[AdamIsAdam]

Now about that steering wheel... I'll put my hat in the ring on that one.

[ReelFun]

Sorry Adam, if it gets parted out, that will be on my car someday.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by ReelFun

Sorry Adam, if it gets parted out, that will be on my car someday.

[tiacguy]

Originally Posted by ReelFun

Doug, I hope you are joking. What you are suggesting is highly unethical and ILLEGAL.

Now that's funny for sure. How many GTOs out there today do you think weren't put back together with welded up pieces of Lemans,Tempest donor cars? Really You GTO purist think it's Ok just as long as you use the firewall right?

[bird72]

Firewall recreation cars can be not as structurally sound, so I avoid them, as I want no worries doing high speed jumps.

[GTOnly70]

I think it would be an interesting display item as-is in the Pontiac museum. Just to show what happened to so many of these special cars before values (and status) escalated. Kinda like the station wagon/camping scene. Show this one in it's former habitat of overgrown weeds and trees, abandoned to the ravages of time and the elements. After all, junkers, lost causes, what coulda/shoulda been stories, and restoration/originality debates are a rich part of our great hobby!

And, yeah, it's a lot rustier than I thought from my original, cursory glance at the pics...

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by GTOnly70

I think it would be an interesting display item as-is in the Pontiac museum. Just to show what happened to so many of these special cars before values (and status) escalated. Kinda like the station wagon/camping scene. Show this one in it's former habitat of overgrown weeds and trees, abandoned to the ravages of time and the elements. After all, junkers, lost causes, what coulda/shoulda been stories, and restoration/originality debates are a rich part of our great hobby!

And, yeah, it's a lot rustier than I thought from my original, cursory glance at the pics...

Cool idea. How do you extract the car AND the weeds at the same time?

[John V.]

And another.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1964-Pontiac...3D152572251644

This one was Sunfire Red, mentions the debunked tale that Sunfire Red was discontinued.

Metallics had been produced for years if not decades before '64 and Sunfire Red Pontiacs were easily documented to have been produced every month of '64 production (not to mention Buicks which used the same paint color). IMO, any problem experienced with Sunfire Red in '64 was a figment of a wild imagination. And no evidence that the color was ever made unavailable during the '64 Model Year. It was rare simply because it wasn't very popular, a "problem" shared with many other paint colors.

As a passionate '64 fan, I hope they would ALL get restored. And frankly, I don't care how it would be done. I've never understood those that think scrapping one makes the one they've got more valuable.

This debate used to be common about 10-15 years ago. I have my own opinion about it, don't need for me to argue it again. Exercise in futility.

I would slobber over this one even if it was dragged to a local cruise night.

[Greg Reid]

I actually like that museum idea. I think it would get a lot of attention. Display it next to a museum quality survivor display of the same year, options and color combo.

[ReelFun]

Originally Posted by tiacguy

Now that's funny for sure. How many GTOs out there today do you think weren't put back together with welded up pieces of Lemans,Tempest donor cars? Really You GTO purist think it's Ok just as long as you use the firewall right?

I'm no GTO purist or numbers matching kinda guy. I like to drive mine. It is just wrong when someone sells a Lemans/Tempest with switched data plates and represents it as a GTO purely to gain more profit.

I would be OK with someone switching all of the parts (minus the data plate) of this car onto another non-GTO car and using it; just don't try to sell it as a GTO.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

I actually like that museum idea. I think it would get a lot of attention. Display it next to a museum quality survivor display of the same year, options and color combo.

Just get rid of the mice first....