[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by pontibeast

As far as the cast rods goes I have heard it both ways. Some say they are junk and should not be used on any type of mild performance engine and others say they have sprayed the heck out of them and they last a long time. i don't really want to spend the cash but I don't want to grenade the motor either. I will need to do some thinking about it before I decide either way, I just figures since it will be at the machine shop getting checked it may be cheaper to do now.

I have used Cast Arma Steel Rods.
I was low on $.
Had them prepped. Rebuilt. ARP.
I Beat The Living Mother Fick out of them Street Racing SBC BBC & Mopar 440's.
Never Blew up.

Another way to look at is All 455 HO, 400 HO, RAM AIR 2 & RAM AIR 4 Had Cast Arma Steel Rods.

[wheneaglesfly]

If You get new aftermarket rods.
Then plan on a set of 8 new pistons.
New Rings.
Hone out block.
Balance job.
Blueprint .
Ect.
If no cash...Then The Credit card comes out.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by pontibeast

As far as the cast rods goes I have heard it both ways. Some say they are junk and should not be used on any type of mild performance engine and others say they have sprayed the heck out of them and they last a long time. i don't really want to spend the cash but I don't want to grenade the motor either. I will need to do some thinking about it before I decide either way, I just figures since it will be at the machine shop getting checked it may be cheaper to do now.

Before there were such a thing as cheap forged rods almost every HP Pontiac build was done with the cast rods, mine included. Now there isn't a motorsport that punishes an engine worse than oval track racing, so all my oval track engines had cast rods in them. Are they the optimum, no they're not, and I have lost rod bearings in these engines, however I have not broken a rod unless the rod bolts broke first, and it started flailing around inside the block.

Most tales you hear about broken rods in Pontiacs are due to, first a spun rod bearing causing the rod to hammer on the crank, and then broken rod bolts, not shearing a rod in half. The rod gets sheared after the rod bolts break. I've done plenty of postmortem autopsies on Pontiac engines and the rods will bend further than you'd think they would before they break.

Now to the question, are they okay to be used in a mild street build if money is a major consideration? Probably, IF you use better rod bolts, and I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Myself if I had the rods and pistons out of the block I would most likely go for the rod that gave me the most overprotection against failure, meaning the forged rod. The cast rods aren't as brittle as glass as many times the conscientious seems to point to. Also all cast rods have no cycle meter on them so you have no idea if they had the living snot beat out of them, or were just in a daily driver grocery getter. My 2 cents from experience.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Also all cast rods have no cycle meter on them so you have no idea if they had the living snot beat out of them, or were just in a daily driver grocery getter. My 2 cents from experience.

To me, this is the issue. If you KNOW the history of those cast rods then use them. I would always used forged rods otherwise.

[wheneaglesfly]

Just a Ballpark figure.
Install New Forged Rods.
New Piston and Rings.
New Bearings.
Full Blueprint .
Machine work.
Balance.

$2,000-2,500 cash required .
Or put on the Credit card and let the Wifee'find out later.

The engine seen Dyno time.
Cast Arma steel rods in the 455 likely OK.

[wheneaglesfly]

In the Corvette world none ever disclose costs $$$$.
Most I knew are done.
Went Bankrupt.
Cars long gone.

[70455HOVert]

Is that a Haiku?

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by 70455HOVert

Is that a Haiku?

No its my own Analysis of the Current Hotrod & Race world regardless of make or model.

Either a guy has near unlimited funds on hand, 50,000-1 million cash.

Or he has $500-1,000 cash.

Or he is building slowly .
Most give up after 6 months or 2 years.
Unable to get required $$$$ for high end race engine builds to put on the street.

[gtofreek]

Here's my take on cast rods. They are strong. They are rigid. They are CAST. With that said, I have put a 250 shot of nitrous on my 428 cast rods, and ran the crap out of it for 2 years. Went though a few bottles of nitrous. Never broke one. When a stock 2 piece valve came apart and stuck in the head of my piston, it bent the small end of the rod over a little bit. Enough to start a small crack in one of the beam ribs. But, it did not break. That engine saw north of 6500 rpms many times. I have never had a cast rod break in two on me.

I machined a 400 for a friend of mine. We had the rods and pistons cryo treated. He built it pretty much stock. On a trip, he broke a rocker arm in two, so he stopped and pulled the rocker arm pieces out, and continued on to Albuquerque, NM. The engine spit the lifter out of the hole, and oil pressure dropped. On the freeway, in the middle of summer, with the A/C going for the wife and baby, he kept driving it about 40 miles to his moms house. Towed the car back home to Tucson. I tore down the engine and found one rod had spun a rod bearing, and that rod actually broke in two on one side, just above the rod bolt head. That broken rod never broke the other side, and continued to stay on the crank, not hurting anything else. That is a testimony to how strong these rods really are. I'm sure the cryo treat helped with that deal.

With all that said, that was 20 something years ago. These cast rods now have been cycled who knows how many times. Millions, possibly 10's of millions of times these rods have been cycled over the last 40-50 years. Who really knows. The way I see it, these cast rods have a cycle expiration date, so to speak, then they can just give up and break. Where are your rods on their cycle time? No one knows, so best to change them now in my mind since you don't know where they stand. Another thing to think about is they are in a 455. A 455 stresses the rod way more than a 326 or a 350 does. Therefor, 455 rods are more than likely, going to be the weakest after 40 years, compared to rods out of a 350.

Pistons can be pressed off the rods without hurting the pistons. I do it all the time. You just need to find a shop with the correct type of fixture to press them off. We use a Snap-on fixture. It supports the rod, not the piston, and while pressing you can actually pivot the piston back and forth without resistance. They come out fine.

I wouldn't trust those rods. If one comes apart, the whole engine is more than likely, done. It could be fine for years and years, but is it worth taking a chance on?

[b-man]

Always build new.

Even if it takes longer and costs more.

Then you'll always be sure of what you're getting.

Best of luck with refreshing your used engine purchase, now's the time to do it up right.

Have patience, it will all work out better in the end.

[WARPed]

This is your own choice you have to make but consider the bulk of the 'I ran cast rods' story's are 'back then' mine included. We all respect HO racing specialties books but that info mentioned earlier was printed back in 1976, a full 40 years ago. At the time of printing they were referring to rods that would had been around 10 years old or even less. It would be foolish nonsense to put a 2000hp+ rated rod in your kind of build of course. There are options today that didn't exist back then so we had to make do with what we had to work with, thankfully we have more choices than ever before for our beloved Pontiac's today.

[nytrainer]

Originally Posted by 70455HOVert

Is that a Haiku?

lol

[MD79TA]

Back in the late sixties early seventy did a lot of street racing light to light almost every Friday and Saturday night . I had a 68 400 back then and I will be honest I missed my fair share of shifts. Never did I or my buddys who ran pontiac snap rods, I think it's way over played and now with a set of ARP bolts I think your safe unless it for pure everyday racing . This is just my opinion but we beat the hell out of these cars back then and plenty of Chevy,Plymouth and dodge with rods hanging out of the block but few if any were pontiac . Again just My opinion and by no way way a builder in today's market.if it's a stock or even close to stock 400/450 hp I don't see them being your problem. And I do know I will most likely take my beating for saying this . Doug

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by MD79TA

Back in the late sixties early seventy did a lot of street racing light to light almost every Friday and Saturday night . I had a 68 400 back then and I will be honest I missed my fair share of shifts. Never did I or my buddys who ran pontiac snap rods, I think it's way over played and now with a set of ARP bolts I think your safe unless it for pure everyday racing . This is just my opinion but we beat the hell out of these cars back then and plenty of Chevy,Plymouth and dodge with rods hanging out of the block but few if any were pontiac . Again just My opinion and by no way way a builder in today's market.if it's a stock or even close to stock 400/450 hp I don't see them being your problem. And I do know I will most likely take my beating for saying this . Doug

Not beating you up at all, but these two lines say a lot. It was back when those rods were brand new. Few cycles. Also it was a 400, which puts way less stress on a rod than a 455. Here 40 years later, these rods have millions of cycles on them, and who knows the history of most of these. They are not good for infinite cycles. So what is the duty cycle before they break? 5,000,000, 10,000,000, 20,000,000, 30,000,000, who knows. It's kind of like that owl asking how many licks it takes until you get to the tootsie roll center.

[tempest1964]

3 licks. !?!?!? Lol

[MD79TA]

Good point and I'm not an engineer to understand if that effect the strength . You would think it does. But really my point was for those of us who live in some fun street racing days ( hope we were safer than what I see out there these days) pontiac were not known for weak bottom ends. But more for the great torque off the Line but that valve float that came on to early. Doug

[tempest1964]

Sorry guys, was just trying to inject a little levity.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by tempest1964

3 licks. !?!?!? Lol

According to the owl anyway! LOL!

[pontibeast]

According to the seller who I do believe the engine was a low mileage original. Less than 35000 miles if I recall. It is still standard bore so I am assuming it wasn't rebuilt before this build up. The rods do have ARP bolts and were reconditioned.I am leaning now towards using them and praying to the lords of horsepower to keep it together for a couple of years. I have a 428 block, crank and a solid cam I could use if worse case it went bang. I will also have to see how the other bearings are when the machine shop gets into it this week. Thank you guys for so much info, I really appreciate it.

[importsmasher]

I built the 455 in my 74 GTO in 1998. I had no idea about better rods or anything; I just used the stock rods, and put ARP bolts in them. I have run this engine hard for almost 20 years, hundreds, maybe thousands of passes down the quarter mile, many times bouncing it off the 6000 RPM rev limiter, and it still runs strong. I have spun rod bearings in various Pontiacs (not the 455), but I have never broken a rod.

FWIW....

Importsmasher