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Jack Gifford · 01-30-2015, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

... Lower deck heights allow for... lighter weight internal components...

Less than an inch removed from the beam of each rod doesn't seem all that significant to me. And ditto for the pushrods. What else is there?

BruceWilkie · 01-30-2015, 11:30 AM

Jack I think the sorter deck allows an intake with shorter runners which may be more favorable to high rpm power?

One inch lower deck would certainly help ease fitting a Pontiac in a small tight engine bay, low hood line etc... Astre, Sunbird, 3rd-4th gen Firebird come to mind, but probably be helpful for early Pontiacs that only needed width for inline 6 in them.

dci · 01-30-2015, 12:02 PM

I like the way your thinking Calvin, but that type of engine is more inline with a Pro Stock or Comp eliminator style engine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that if you know going in. That it's a very high maintenance piece with allot of throw away pieces when you freshen it. I am thinking more in line with a dependable bracket type engine that makes around 800-1300 HP. That would keep us competitive in most classes out there right now and we don't need to turn allot of rpm. These engines are already expensive enough to build and adding high maintenance to them will limit us even more. Nothing like a high winding big block though LOL. Those Comp eliminator and Pro Stocks at the big sound awesome!!!!!

65nss4spdGTO · 01-30-2015, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Gifford

Less than an inch removed from the beam of each rod doesn't seem all that significant to me. And ditto for the pushrods. What else is there?

It starts with the stroke. For example I'll use my 400ci stock block engine, 3.750" stroke.

To get a "good" pin height on the piston 1.250", I need a really long connecting rod, around 7.100". I can add stroke say to 4.500" and shorten the rod to 6.730" and still use a 1.250" pin height. If I'm really looking to stay with the 3.750" stroke, I start with a short deck block, say 9.500", now I can use a 6.375" connecting rod with the same pin height. Now based on the crank design of a 3.750" vs a 4.500", the counter weight design, rods journals can all be reduced allowing for additional design changes in the connecting rod, pins and so on to lighten the components. As far as push rods, with the raised runner heads (Tiger, HP, PP) and very long valves, the push rods lengths are very long on a standard Pontiac deck heights. So now we need to add diameter which compromises the intake area, offsets and clearance issues. I would much rather run an 9" long push rod over a 11" long. It is all compounded and not one design change will make the difference.

Reducing the deck height will also reduce the runner length on the intake manifold allowing for increased RPM.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

65nss4spdGTO · 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dci

I like the way your thinking Calvin, but that type of engine is more inline with a Pro Stock or Comp eliminator style engine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that if you know going in. That it's a very high maintenance piece with allot of throw away pieces when you freshen it. I am thinking more in line with a dependable bracket type engine that makes around 800-1300 HP. That would keep us competitive in most classes out there right now and we don't need to turn allot of rpm. These engines are already expensive enough to build and adding high maintenance to them will limit us even more. Nothing like a high winding big block though LOL. Those Comp eliminator and Pro Stocks at the big sound awesome!!!!!

I completely agree.

Other than costs, I see no reason why I would want to use an LS platform over the ability we have today with our Pontiac's.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

ho428 · 01-30-2015, 02:13 PM

From the other thread.

Quote:

What's holding Pontiac back, it's thinking it's only good as a drag race engine. How many platforms does the SBC, SBF, BBC, LS, Coyote, etc... cross over too?

Tom Vaught · 01-30-2015, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ho428

From the other thread.

X2, Our little 6 cylinder Turbocharger ECO-BOOST engine can go into a Lincoln, a Taurus, a Edge, a F-150, and a "Ford GT Supercar" or a Riley Race car: http://gas2.org/2015/01/28/ford-ecob...n-win-daytona/

Same deal with the Chip Ganassi Racing Full Body cars: http://www.conceptcarz.com/a6570/FOR...R-VICTORY.aspx

If you build a proper engine with the right features it can be used in many places in racing.

Difference between being GLOBAL (many types of racing) in the racing world vs local or a single national event.

Tom V.

That being said, it is nice to see guys like our Boat Racer down under, h0428 & JC in the circuit racing, and our Bonneville racers giving the other venues some "Pontiac Powerplant" time.

dci · 02-02-2015, 11:33 AM

Calvin, the cost between a high end build LS engine and a high end build Pontiac really are not that much different. I think I seen someone already state here somewhere. Top shelf parts cost the same, top shelf machine work stays the same, and the labor for a high end build is the same. So it all comes down to whether or not someone wants to build an LS or a Pontiac. That's the reason I started this thread. To shed some light on the fact that nothing is holding us back, but us. We have the parts available to us now. We just need the Pontiac guy's to start showing the Chevy,Ford and Chrysler guy's we mean business and start making a statement in a big way. I can tell you for sure that the other guy's are starting to take notice. Especially since the Crow on street outlaws is kicking a$$ and guy's like Snyder, Dwight, and Langer are a threat. Pontiac's are getting some long needed and deserved attention. Let's all keep it going. Dream big and make it happen!!!!

GTOGEORGE · 02-02-2015, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dci

Calvin, the cost between a high end build LS engine and a high end build Pontiac really are not that much different. I think I seen someone already state here somewhere. Top shelf parts cost the same, top shelf machine work stays the same, and the labor for a high end build is the same. So it all comes down to whether or not someone wants to build an LS or a Pontiac. That's the reason I started this thread. To shed some light on the fact that nothing is holding us back, but us. We have the parts available to us now. We just need the Pontiac guy's to start showing the Chevy,Ford and Chrysler guy's we mean business and start making a statement in a big way. I can tell you for sure that the other guy's are starting to take notice. Especially since the Crow on street outlaws is kicking a$$ and guy's like Snyder, Dwight, and Langer are a threat. Pontiac's are getting some long needed and deserved attention. Let's all keep it going. Dream big and make it happen!!!!

Don's 100% correct!

GTO George

cgeise · 02-02-2015, 09:48 PM

As I read this I ask myself what does the title mean? Holding us back from WHAT? From being the best comp or pro-stock motor out there??? From being a competitive bracket motor with low maintenance?? The best alternative street motor?? Ever engine design has limitations, that why pro stock or even comp have user specific combinations. We can manipulate the basic design until is unrecognizable as a Pontiac or we can do something short of that and have a good recognizable combo that shows your a dedicated "HOBBIEST"

dci · 02-03-2015, 10:06 AM

Curt, I think you get my point. Let's work within our architecture and stop crying about what we don't have. If you really start to dissect the Pontiac engine and the class racing we have today. You will see that the Pontiac engine is very well suited for many of the classes currently. One needs to be wise, think outside the box a little, and stretch the rules to create an advantage with what we have. For example, just because the rules state you must use a cast intake. Doesn't mean that it cannot be from another engine family that's been modified to fit. It all comes down to how you interpret the rules. That's what makes the super stars so great in this sport. I can tell you for sure that guy's like Smokey Yunick did not just say well we have to use a stock intake. No, he said we have to use a stock appearing intake and what they can't see won't hurt them. More times than not innovators get called cheaters. Why is that? I suspect it's because the other guy didn't think of it first and their ego get's the best of them!!!! Instead of saying to them selves Hmmm good idea. Maybe if we do this just a little different I can beat him at his own game.

roadrage david · 02-03-2015, 01:35 PM

enough said http://youtu.be/pv4qouMwhj8

mgarblik · 02-03-2015, 01:53 PM

What a great video. Yea, Pontiac's can't race with the big boys. Pontiac's can't go around corners with that mile wide oil pan and lousy oil system and windage control. Pontiac's can't accelerate with that long stroke. Pontiac's can't keep a head gasket on with 10 bolts for over an 1/8 mile. Pontiac's run over their crankshafts at 700 HP. Pontiac's spin bearings at over 5800 RPM. Damn, I guess Roger just didn't listen!!

roadrage david · 02:24 PM

part 2 http://youtu.be/MJ9fGZOcj_A Funny thing is that porshe had 1000 hp was 300kg(661lbs) lighter then Rogers car!!. and get this Roger is WAY wrongly geard 3.07 rear ratio 4 speed 1on1. he drives and shifts 3e and 4th thats al. And he still kicks butt. My car 68 firebird listed in the race section as Project Road Force one wil be better geard wil have a 6 speed and wil make 1200 rpm more with the same 700 hp. and wil have the Vari lift system mentioned a couple of posts back. it WILL beat the crap out of all the modernday hero cars... Its the everlasting dragrace only crap thats holding Pontiac back. its tru merrit lias in other places not just drag racing..

cgeise · 02-03-2015, 06:12 PM

damn thought I was going to get car sick

Sirrotica · 02-03-2015, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadrage david

part 2 http://youtu.be/MJ9fGZOcj_A Funny thing is that porshe had 1000 hp was 300kg(661lbs) lighter then Rogers car!!. and get this Roger is WAY wrongly geard 3.07 rear ratio 4 speed 1on1. he drives and shifts 3e and 4th thats al. And he still kicks butt. My car 68 firebird listed in the race section as Project Road Force one wil be better geard wil have a 6 speed and wil make 1200 rpm more with the same 700 hp. and wil have the Vari lift system mentioned a couple of posts back. it WILL beat the crap out of all the modernday hero cars... Its the everlasting dragrace only crap thats holding Pontiac back. its tru merrit lias in other places not just drag racing..

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!

Racing using the steering wheel and around corners........... What a revelation.

After watching the video, Roger is a very smooth driver, and smooth is fast when it comes to corners. I only saw one time where he got the rear wheels loose. I wish they had a camera looking at the Porsche because I believe the guy driving it wanted back by Roger. He was running it a little harder than he was when following him, so I believe he was being pressured pretty hard.

Pontiacs racing heritage and reputation from the good old days is as much on road courses and oval tracks as it was at the drag strips. Yet 99.99% of Pontiac enthusiasts only race in a straight line.

Lots more people would notice our Stratostreak power plants if they were making some inroads in other forms of racing instead of only on a dragstrip...............

Ernie Millon, from Pa races the only late model stock car in the world that I know of with Stratostreak power under the hood. Engine is built by Butler, and he has basically no sponsors, he does it on his own dime.

6x400gmc · 02-03-2015, 09:37 PM

My dad raced late models on dirt in North Louisiana from the mid 80's up through the early 90's when we moved to Georgia. Then it was street class with a whole new car.

First two pics are of the came car. Powered by a 400 with Ram Air IV heads, SD Rods, zero decked, solid roller cam, Warrior intake and an alky 1150 Dominator. had an ST-300 transmission with a quick change. Talking him just now his highest gear ratio ranged between a 5.86 and a 6.70:1. He said it loved to turn 7000.

The third picture is of a 1978 Pontiac Phoenix that I actually had a hand in building from the ground up. The dirt track in Savannah was a 5/8's tri-oval (a Nascar track at the time!) and was too long for the automatic. Engine size was limited to what you could get in the car factory, so out came the 400 and in it's place went a junkyard 350 that was bought literally STUCK with rust, and a 4-speed. Can't remember if it was a Muncie or a ST-10. I don't remember the engine combination either.

He did really well with both cars against Chevy's, Fords and Mopars and has a wall full of trophies to prove it.

Pontiac's can run. I was there to see it all from about 1988 to 1995.

Britt

Sirrotica · 02-03-2015, 10:03 PM

The car in my signature (1967 GTO) was in 1977, in the class that at that time represented street stocks. RA I 400 won 13 races in 2 years of campaigning it.

Read about and pics of the oval track Pontiacs I raced here:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=507440

Also did some road racing and autocross in my 73 T/A. Won the C/Prepared championship in my division the year I raced autocross.

J.C. was the owner of a dirt modified a couple years ago until the track closed in his area. Over the years at my home track I sponsored many street stock Pontiac powered cars and had a pretty fair win ratio in that class.

My dream would to be to own a 410 winged sprint car with Stratostreak power. the aluminum block is already available and with RA V heads by Don, I think 900 HP is doable. That would set the chevies back a notch or two getting beat in the top dirt track class in the US.

mgarblik · 02-03-2015, 10:16 PM

I'm one drag racer who loves to see the Pontiac engine race in ALL FORMS of competition. Most of the drag racers here appreciate a great effort in any form of motorsports. When Smokey Yunick was alive and a contributor, Circle Track was my #1 go to magazine for drag racing ideas.

Elarson · 02-03-2015, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

My dream would to be to own a 410 winged sprint car with Stratostreak power. the aluminum block is already available and with RA V heads by Don, I think 900 HP is doable. That would set the chevies back a notch or two getting beat in the top dirt track class in the US.

Let Mike and I know if you decide to pursue your dream. It would be fun to help.

Eric

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