[Don Keefe]

Originally Posted by Alvin

My personal "Great" Pontiac memories include talking and meeting in person Pontiacers like Pete McCarthy, Steve Ames, and Jim Wangers among many others, at DAPA, TA Nats, Tour De Wangers, etc...

You wrote: "If Don Keefe or Jim Wangers votes with their feet then there may be a huge problem, but I don't see that happening."

If the future of POCI hinges on Don Keefe and (80+) Jim Wangers staying, you've pointed out the bullseye of the POCI survivalship problem. http://youtu.be/WZEJ4OJTgg8

To take nothing away from Mr. Wangers, I am only 49 years old and I think I have a few good years left in me. Though I have been in the Pontiac magazine world for 25 years, I am far from all used up at this point.

Many of the problems that POCI has experienced over the years have been addressed and countered. The problem is that so many of you left so long ago, that you haven't seen the changes that have been made.

First off, our membership has been stable for the past five years, we generally stay in the 8,700 range give or take. This huge loss of membership recently hasn't happened. Yes, the numbers were over 10,000 but that was in the late 1980s.

Yes, the web site could use an update but if you are a member, there is a whole section that you haven't seen and it is not half bad. Look into it.

As editor-in-chief and art director since August of 2006, I can say that no "Aztek brainwashing" or "GMC force-feeding" is going on. I try to keep my editorials light-hearted and positive. Mostly I talk about my adventures and misadventures with my '66 Tempest and 2000 GTP. The editorial is geared to the membership and not necessarily to the entire Pontiac hobby. We don't do a lot race engine builds, or late-model coverage but we do cover a lot of features on some great cars owned by members, we cover POCI and Pontiac-related events and we do quite a bit of DIY tech stuff. Chapters activities get a lot of ink as well.

If you want hard-core engine builds, I also write for HPP so I got you covered there. As a club publication, Smoke Signals does exactly what it needs to. We redesigned it about a year ago and it won its seventh Golden Quill in a row. I am very proud of that.

Like I said before, many of the problems mentioned have nothing to do with what is going on now. Don't believe me? Just get a digital download of Smoke Signals. I believe there is a free copy available on our web site. Things have changed, it isn't perfect but let's let go of the anger about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and move on.

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

Well said! I think if you check the subscription rate of HPP I think you will find
it peaked quite some time ago. Pontiac is now in the same boat as Studebaker, so naturally
POCI is going to shrink. It is not necessarily shrinking because they are doing a lousy job of running the club. Honestly, short of improving their website to make it more user friendly
I don't know what anyone expects them to do to improve things. Perhaps the Pontiac hobby
just sucks in general if people dislike POCI so much! As far as burnout goes, you can add me to the list as well. Currently I am more interested in my 65 Riviera, 70 Chevelle and new
Mustang than I am my Pontiacs. It's hard to stay enthused about something to the same
level for 35 years......it is against human nature.

As I said earlier, I'm a member of the Studebaker Drivers Club (SDC). We're holding our own, membership wise, and in some instances, growing with new, and younger members. Why would one organization dedicated to an "orphan" car grow, and one, as you say, shrink? One has to think it has to do partially with the organization itself. Whether they refuse to change with the times, or have made poor decisions, or continue to make poor decisions, or any one of a dozen reason's, you have to look at the club.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

OK, you guys have convinced me that POCI sucks because they don't cowtow
to my every need and whim. I'm submitting my resignation today. Also, I don't get along
with one of my neighbors down the block so I'm putting my house up for sale as soon as
I can get a realtor on the phone. Also, the Dallas Cowboys lost last Sunday so I'll be damned
if I'm going to be a Cowboy fan anymore.....I'm tuning out! Thanks to everyone for helping
me see the light! I feel better already!

Winston, as a lifetime diehard cowboy fan (as much as I have wanted to hate them especially when they fired landry) I have stuck by them and until this year always went to some of their home games. BUT I am so sick of jerry jones and the predictable nature of them. that this year I have found myself yelling at the tv as to what they are going to do to find a way to lose. and sure enough it seems to happen. but I am still trying to stick with them. as for poci, I have nothing against them, but it seems like after letting my membership expire I realized that I wasn't missing anything.

[Formulabruce]

Jerry Jones... now there is a 20 page thread all on its own!! I wouldnt compare ANYTHING I liked or drove to him...

[65 Cat 2+2]

Any of you POCI members interested in putting your ideas to work in making it a better club, now is your chance. Click below if you would like to run for a Board of Directors position:
http://www.poci.org/POCI_page.cfm?SID=260

[Deadhead]

Originally Posted by GpFreak

I see what your problem is, it's that country you live in... the USSA, where is that anyway?

United Soviet States of America Sorry if you don't get the irony.

Don Bougher informs me that the deadline for submitting answers to the board questionnaire is 11/15.

[bird72]

After reading this thread I feel like I will join POCI, just to see what a year feels like, THEN judge the system. I will put on my short to do list agenda. What I wonder....
The membership times annual dues is a pretty big chunk of cash. Is there annual accounting of funds? By that I mean, with that annual $ flow, some pretty significant annual things to show for it should be visable. Do the annual events take all that? Just curious, the math indicates a fair $ amount.

[Don Keefe]

The annual membership dues is $35 and a full annual accounting is available to all members, through the web site. It is a very transparent system now and every penny is accounted for.

[65 Cat 2+2]

True - POCI finances are completely transparent. An organization this size has expenses most people don't even consider. Part of each membership dollar goes to the following:
Smoke Signals magazine - one of (if not THE) highest quality auto club publications on the planet (credit to Don Keefe).
Insurance - a blanket policy to cover all the shows put on by regional & specialty Chapters, underwriting their financial liability.
Staff - a small office staff of one or two, I think. All officers are unpaid volunteers.
Office expenses
Postage (a considerable amount to mail the magazines)
Website
Generous contributions of money and time to the founding and ongoing operations of the Pontiac Museum.

Having personally participated in Board meetings, I can vouch for the conscientious deliberations that determine how carefully the members' money is spent.

[65 Cat 2+2]

Don Bougher informs me that the deadline for submitting answers to the board questionnaire is 11/15.

Sorry for the confusion. If it helps, here is Don Bougher's original message regarding the deadline:
"If you are interested in being considered for the ballot please complete the following questions. The deadline for responding with the answers to these questions is November 15, 2013.

If you are selected...you will need to provide us with the write-up of what you wish to have printed in the Smoke Signals about your candidacy and a "mug shot", something similar to a passport photo) no later than November 30, 2013."

For those who still wish to apply for nomination to a director's position, we have time as long as everything is submitted by 11/30.

[Txbobcat]

Over 2000 views. It looks like a lot of people are interested in and watching this thread. I am sure all of us would like to see POCI survive and move forward.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

To take nothing away from Mr. Wangers, I am only 49 years old and I think I have a few good years left in me. Though I have been in the Pontiac magazine world for 25 years, I am far from all used up at this point.

Many of the problems that POCI has experienced over the years have been addressed and countered. The problem is that so many of you left so long ago, that you haven't seen the changes that have been made.

First off, our membership has been stable for the past five years, we generally stay in the 8,700 range give or take. This huge loss of membership recently hasn't happened. Yes, the numbers were over 10,000 but that was in the late 1980s.

Yes, the web site could use an update but if you are a member, there is a whole section that you haven't seen and it is not half bad. Look into it.

As editor-in-chief and art director since August of 2006, I can say that no "Aztek brainwashing" or "GMC force-feeding" is going on. I try to keep my editorials light-hearted and positive. Mostly I talk about my adventures and misadventures with my '66 Tempest and 2000 GTP. The editorial is geared to the membership and not necessarily to the entire Pontiac hobby. We don't do a lot race engine builds, or late-model coverage but we do cover a lot of features on some great cars owned by members, we cover POCI and Pontiac-related events and we do quite a bit of DIY tech stuff. Chapters activities get a lot of ink as well.

If you want hard-core engine builds, I also write for HPP so I got you covered there. As a club publication, Smoke Signals does exactly what it needs to. We redesigned it about a year ago and it won its seventh Golden Quill in a row. I am very proud of that.

Like I said before, many of the problems mentioned have nothing to do with what is going on now. Don't believe me? Just get a digital download of Smoke Signals. I believe there is a free copy available on our web site. Things have changed, it isn't perfect but let's let go of the anger about what happened 20 or 30 years ago and move on.

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

The annual membership dues is $35 and a full annual accounting is available to all members, through the web site. It is a very transparent system now and every penny is accounted for.

Originally Posted by 65 Cat 2+2

True - POCI finances are completely transparent. An organization this size has expenses most people don't even consider. Part of each membership dollar goes to the following:
Smoke Signals magazine - one of (if not THE) highest quality auto club publications on the planet (credit to Don Keefe).
Insurance - a blanket policy to cover all the shows put on by regional & specialty Chapters, underwriting their financial liability.
Staff - a small office staff of one or two, I think. All officers are unpaid volunteers.
Office expenses
Postage (a considerable amount to mail the magazines)
Website
Generous contributions of money and time to the founding and ongoing operations of the Pontiac Museum.

Having personally participated in Board meetings, I can vouch for the conscientious deliberations that determine how carefully the members' money is spent.

Interesting.

I’ve enjoyed (and paid money for) many excellent photo shoots and articles in the past authored by Don Keefe, even the recent GTO resto book.

That said:

• So perhaps some of the POCI staff are too close to see it? It appears that, as presented here and above, Pontiac representation is “The Don Keefe Show?” "As editor-in-chief and art director since August of 2006, I can say that no "Aztek brainwashing" or "GMC force-feeding" is going on."
A brief check, as far as I can tell, I let our membership expire 11/2008 due to the same OP topic issues.

Also, is there any consideration by POCI “Lieutenants’” of possible “over saturation” by one contributor, or a handful at best?

• "Smoke Signals magazine - one of (if not THE) highest quality auto club publications on the planet (credit to Don Keefe)."

• " I also write for HPP so I got you covered there."

Have you asked yourselves - Why in the world would anyone want to spend duplicate $ annually for poci, HPP, plus GTOAA, etc. to see and read the same content? Also covered by HMM, WAC, etc.? Have you checked out those competing “free Pontiac information” sites to compare with your own?

Suggestion: Instead of general statements made of website links, as a “customer service” – why not simply Post the direct links here to promote the “new improvements” for a free look. Younger and potential members certainly aren’t going to waste time searching for ambiguous link references Such as:

• "Yes, the web site could use an update but if you are a member, there is a whole section that you haven't seen and it is not half bad. Look into it." How can anyone - a non-member - "look into it?"

And why would I even have to suggest the posting of the links here, really?

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

...as for poci, I have nothing against them, but it seems like after letting my membership expire I realized that I wasn't missing anything.

I agree. Any indications that I’ve no skin in the game or have no right to comment are bogus. We’ve paid good money for duplicitous Pontiac memberships, content, organizations and volunteered, etc.; currently and in the past; all to promote and enjoy the Pontiacs we love. No need to be “schooled” on the subject, really.

So, are poci “members” considered customers or robots by the hierarchy? No reply needed. I’ll keep my $35+ dollars and let the dust settle before considering another membership.

To me this IS the “same POCI ‘discussion’ for the past 35 years.” Nothing’s really changed. Fall in line and STFU! Please feel free to use OPM (Other Peoples’ Money) to promote your POCI special interests and dictates.

To those here; such as “Engine-Ear” and the rest; who are currently seeking to make it a better Pontiac experience in all they are involved - Good Luck and best wishes for your efforts. As pointed out by some posters on this thread -my POCI membership, or lack of, won't matter. "P-O-N-T-I-A-C 'Nuff Said!"

[Don Keefe]

So you're telling me that HPP, Smoke Signals and The Legend all have the same content- and you haven't been a member of POCI since 2008. Really? As far as the "Don Keefe Show" reference, I was trying to differentiate the notion that there is a difference in content and that I write different material, in different places to cater to different audiences.

There is a bigger picture here and that is the Pontiac hobby as a whole. Chris Phillip, Rocky Rotella, Tom DeMauro, Tom Symczyk and myself are the guys in the print media world who even care about Pontiac. Trust me, there aren't a cadre of people trying to break into this end of the automotive world- it is a challenge to get members to send photos of their cars to any of the magazines.

As far as oversaturation of contributors, unfortunately, the line is pretty short and it isn't getting longer. We are doing our level best to keep going. I am really sorry it isn't enough for you.

If you think that the state of the Pontiac hobby and POCI is the same and nothing has changed, there really isn't anything I can say that will change your mind because it is closed to the reality of what the POCI is now. Fall in line and STFU? That's what you think is going on?

I know it's easy to sit around and pass judgement all day long but I have to get back to work and ship a Pontiac magazine to the printer.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

So you're telling me that HPP, Smoke Signals and The Legend all have the same content- and you haven't been a member of POCI since 2008. Really? As far as the "Don Keefe Show" reference, I was trying to differentiate the notion that there is a difference in content and that I write different material, in different places to cater to different audiences.

There is a bigger picture here and that is the Pontiac hobby as a whole. Chris Phillip, Rocky Rotella, Tom DeMauro, Tom Symczyk and myself are the guys in the print media world who even care about Pontiac. Trust me, there aren't a cadre of people trying to break into this end of the automotive world- it is a challenge to get members to send photos of their cars to any of the magazines.

As far as oversaturation of contributors, unfortunately, the line is pretty short and it isn't getting longer. We are doing our level best to keep going. I am really sorry it isn't enough for you.

If you think that the state of the Pontiac hobby and POCI is the same and nothing has changed, there really isn't anything I can say that will change your mind because it is closed to the reality of what the POCI is now. Fall in line and STFU? That's what you think is going on?

I know it's easy to sit around and pass judgement all day long but I have to get back to work and ship a Pontiac magazine to the printer.

Irony missed here: I am a paid subscriber to HPP...a customer.

[Don Keefe]

Actually, it is myopic...

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

So you're telling me that HPP, Smoke Signals and The Legend all have the same content- and you haven't been a member of POCI since 2008. Really? As far as the "Don Keefe Show" reference, I was trying to differentiate the notion that there is a difference in content and that I write different material, in different places to cater to different audiences.

There is a bigger picture here and that is the Pontiac hobby as a whole. Chris Phillip, Rocky Rotella, Tom DeMauro, Tom Symczyk and myself are the guys in the print media world who even care about Pontiac. Trust me, there aren't a cadre of people trying to break into this end of the automotive world- it is a challenge to get members to send photos of their cars to any of the magazines.

As far as oversaturation of contributors, unfortunately, the line is pretty short and it isn't getting longer. We are doing our level best to keep going. I am really sorry it isn't enough for you.

If you think that the state of the Pontiac hobby and POCI is the same and nothing has changed, there really isn't anything I can say that will change your mind because it is closed to the reality of what the POCI is now. Fall in line and STFU? That's what you think is going on?

I know it's easy to sit around and pass judgement all day long but I have to get back to work and ship a Pontiac magazine to the printer.

As a former editor of our local newsletter, I can attest to this 100%. Its nearly impossible to get anyone to submit useful information that anyone would want to read.

Don, I dropped out a year ago and really miss Smokes now that Im looking for a car. Hands down the best car club publication anywhere.

[Old Goat Racer]

Low & behold, POCI sent me a "rejoin" post card today.

I too didn't like/think GMC should have been phased into the club.
They didn't change the name to PO(GMC)CI.

Last I read they still have 8499 members. Is that not enough to pay the bills?

I let go, moved on & don't miss it. Thanks but no thanks.

And I own a GMC.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

Actually, it is myopic...

Indeed, so it seems to be. So now; who's wasting whose time?

While you’re celebrating your “immediate win” here perhaps you would want to consider the “win” against me as ephemeral due to a potential “Shortsightedness or lack of discernment in thinking or planning:” ‘For Lorca, New York is a symbol of spiritual myopia, where man…has lost sight of those elemental natural forces.’ (Edwin Honig)”

Natural forces are at indeed at work...as the POCI numbers continue to dwindle...Keep Digging…and “Winning” with your long-term thinking and planning by bashing me and the other free thinking non-robots, and totally disregard any suggestions made.

And thank you for writing it here for all to witness YOUR ATTITUDE - wither they be Pro or Con regarding the OP.

That's your Best Growth Planning; Really? Good Luck with that.

[Don Keefe]

Wow...

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Don Keefe

Wow...

Wow Indeed.

To shine the spotlight on this topic a little brighter, just received this PM

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

I think your arguing with the wrong guy.

Ive known Don for a number of years and I can honestly say there isn't a nicer guy or a more dedicated guy to the hobby than him. Take your beef with POCI to someone else.

I need to ask Paul for permission now so it seems. Nope.