[Mirk]

I am hoping you guys can tell me if this looks original or not. Obviously its been tampered with (Stolen at one point perhaps?) but I need to know if this vin plate is original or swapped. The dash board was only held in place with two screws, and it is not hte original dash. Its a red dash that someone painted blue. I put two and two together, and decided to take the dash off and take a good hard look at this VIN plate. Pictures are attached.

[se428bandit]

The red is what all norwood car had as a coating from the factory.Maybe somebody tired to take the vin off at one time.

[2manyT/A'S]

I'd say it HASN'T been tampered with from a bottom/rivet perspective.

Looks like some "hack" jammed a big screwdriver under it at some point causing the damage,unfortunately.

The rivets look like the original rosette style.

If you pull your evap/blower motor housing of the pass. side firewall,hopefully the matching vin will be stamped underneath.

[blue71ta]

Originally Posted by 2manyT/A'S

I'd say it HASN'T been tampered with from a bottom/rivet perspective.

Looks like some "hack" jammed a big screwdriver under it at some point causing the damage,unfortunately.

The rivets look like the original rosette style.

If you pull your evap/blower motor housing of the pass. side firewall,hopefully the matching vin will be stamped underneath.

Agreed. Looks like someone tried to pry it off from the top side, but the underside looks right to me.

[SOM Firehawk 02]

I agree, I'm restoring my 70 T/A and had to repair some rust around the dash corners so I took some pictures. Attached is a picture of mine and it look like the same rivets.

[Mr Twister]

I think it looks like it has never been off. There is a place that can restore that vin plate. I think it also makes data plates. I don't remember the name (maybe trim plates dot com). As far as the rosette rivets to reinstall it, good luck with that.

[70RAlll]

Rosette rivettes where available on Ebay a while back. I think Ebay made the buy take the offerings off,or maybe not..I just haven;t seen them in a while. Then again, has anyone else noticed Ebay has been taken over by the SUmmit Racings of the world with full page listings of the smae item?? This has made it damn nearly impossible to find used parts listings as we had previously.. I have stopped using Ebay because of this..BUT.. the rosette rivettes are available.. and I am going to be the one different vs the rest of the threads posters. I cannot tell from the pic's if the heads are rosette or not. So I can't say of they look original or not. Maybe it is just my eyes going bad..

[Mirk]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your input. Honestly I feel like I should be paying for the privilege of searching and posting to these forums. This level of knowledge and advice is impossible to get from anywhere else. Without these forums I would be 100% lost.

Ok, so would you guys actually recommend I remove the VIN plate to repair it? or just leave it as is? because as is, it makes it look like I stole the car and tried to pull the VIN off somehow. lol. I plan to keep the car until I die, however I am still worried about preserving its authenticity and value. I just love 2nd Gen Firebird/TA's, and 72's are my fav, because I love the seats, honeycomb grill, option packages, rarity, and the unique story behind them.

[2manyT/A'S]

I think you could make it look a whole lot BETTER without removing it.

I'd try with a pair of vise-grips (the ones with the wide flat jaws) if they will fit over the dash/vin.

Put some small flat pieces of wood over both the top & bottom of dash/vin.(to protect it)

If you have a 2nd person watching/guiding the front edge of actual vin plate with a medium slot screwdriver as you apply light pressure on the vise grips,you might be able to straighten it out.

Go SLOW & be CAREFUL,you COULD make it WORSE.

[Formulabruce]

Looks like the typical insurance company deal with a prybar smash through the glass to the VIN when a car used to go to the JY cause they didnt want it re registered. Which was not right, or even legal, but I saw it alot in the late 70's and 80's.

[Mirk]

Really? Hmmm I have never heard of that. Makes me wonder. I think I should send in an application to get the vehicles registration history. Find out who all has owned the vehicle before me, and make some phone calls. Thanks Formula Bruce.

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Looks like the typical insurance company deal with a prybar smash through the glass to the VIN when a car used to go to the JY cause they didnt want it re registered. Which was not right, or even legal, but I saw it alot in the late 70's and 80's.

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Mirk

Hey guys, thanks a lot for your input. Honestly I feel like I should be paying for the privilege of searching and posting to these forums. This level of knowledge and advice is impossible to get from anywhere else. Without these forums I would be 100% lost.

Ok, so would you guys actually recommend I remove the VIN plate to repair it? or just leave it as is? because as is, it makes it look like I stole the car and tried to pull the VIN off somehow. lol. I plan to keep the car until I die, however I am still worried about preserving its authenticity and value. I just love 2nd Gen Firebird/TA's, and 72's are my fav, because I love the seats, honeycomb grill, option packages, rarity, and the unique story behind them.

I disagree with some of the other posters on this thread.You will never in a million years get that VIN plate looking anywhere near correct without complete removal and out on a benach to flatten out,. I would be careful using a hammer or anything similar. The number impressions are fragile and will flatten out once hit, even with a hard rubber mallet. I would put between two pieces of soft wood(pine not hardowwd) and try pressing in a press. But even with this idea, I would go slow with trial anderror testing to find what works. That VIN plate is not replacable. There is a company TRIMTAGS.com that will make trim tags(Fisher Body Tags) but as far as I know, it is illegal to reproduce a VIN data plate. DO a search for rosette VIN rivets, or similar word string. You will find they are available. SO reassembling isn;t going to be a problem. I would make sure to cut the rivet from the bottom. Inevitably, if you try from the top, the VIN plate will end up getting cut..

Just my 2c worth..

[Norwood]

I am pretty sure that it IS AGAINST THE LAW TO REMOVE IT. Steve can chime in on this.

[Mirk]

Thanks for the advice 70RAIII. I think I may have to remove the vin plate as you said. The metal has a "spring" affect and does not flatten out using the Vicegrips and wood.

It is also against the law to roll back the odometer to 0 to reflect a new engine being installed, but I already did that too. lol. I respect the illegality of the situation, but I feel its the right thing to do. The VIN needs to be fixed, and the Odometer needs to reflect the restoration. I figure as long as I keep good documentation of everything I have done, it should not be an issue if my family decides to sell the car after I die. Thanks guys. I guess I just need to find me some of those Rosetta rivets.

I still hate to remove the VIN. Its like taking the whole cars identity away, even if I do replace the original plate back once repaired.

Originally Posted by Norwood

I am pretty sure that it IS AGAINST THE LAW TO REMOVE IT. Steve can chime in on this.

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Norwood

I am pretty sure that it IS AGAINST THE LAW TO REMOVE IT. Steve can chime in on this.

I am sure it is to some extent, BUT....it is against to drive 85 MPH on the interstate, burn rubber etc.,., I think common sense(unfortunately not all laws are common sense) would dictate that these laws would exempt repair and replace. The spirit of the law has to be illegal to remove or tamper with a vin plate to change a car,fraud etc. But in the course of a restoration, I am pretty sure you could get away without being prosecuted if you take pictures of before and after and that is all you do, repair and re install. I would think you would have to have a overly zelous Attorney General to prosecute you for repairing an obvious problem like this. And secondly, who is ever going to know? Like I suggest, as long as you are just repairing, in your own garage, I guess "technically" it will be against the law, but I am sure you could get by. If you are overly concerned with the legal aspect... check the law,and if it is against the law... you could probably take pictures , visit your city's attorney generals office , meet with one of the assist AG's and you could more than likely get a waiver . Steve can chime in and give a legal response... but I bet his answer will be close to mine(which really isn't in disagreement with Craigs)..

[Norwood]

I will let people that know more than me chime in , but i'm sure it is a FELONY.

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Norwood

I will let people that know more than me chime in , but i'm sure it is a FELONY.

You know... This thread has gotten to serious concerning a simple fix.. I would never advise anyone to break the law. I just tried to offer my opinion to the solution .I suggest the guy with the problem makes his own decisions based on his lawyers advice if he thinks it is needed. Craig, I know vin swapping is a felony, I still don't know about classic car restoration how the law treats that. You can buy new,zero'd out odometers,yet we all know it is against the law to roll back the odometer on a newer car. I think there is a patchwork of laws,state by state. States are responsible for the isuuance of titles.. I still suspect there is a way to repair that vin plate,by removing it, without being sent to jail for a felony.. BUT..I am not a lawyer and ask that our friend on this board does not use my advice as legal advice, it isn't and i am not competent in legal matters..

Damn... this thread has me worn out.. think I will stay away for a while.. take care everyone..

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Norwood

I will let people that know more than me chime in , but i'm sure it is a FELONY.

sometimes your laws seem so retarded that it's laughable...

I understand the logic, but lets look at it this way:

1. you can buy full replacement dash tops
2. for any car with enough rot to merit removal and replacement of the dash top, the vin tag (and cowl tag) are attached to the replacement part - so replacing means that the vin tag (ans well as the cowl tag) need to be transfered from the old metal to the new metal.

if this was a matter of a car having it's vin exchanged, or tampered with, I agree it's 100% wrong - but the car in question is being repaired, and at the end of the day the car that was registered & insured with the bent vin tag, is still going to be the same car registered & insured with an un-bent vin tag.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to live state-side (which would make it theoretically possible for me to live in a vicinity which does not see snow), but it's over stupid laws like this that make me happy to be Canadian... and this is just one (car related) scenario which makes me think this way...
It seems to me that this is an example of bureaucracy infringing on one's rights - your right to repair your car.

If I lived in an area which this was deemed illegal, I would do the repair and tell no one of it.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by Norwood

I am pretty sure that it IS AGAINST THE LAW TO REMOVE IT. Steve can chime in on this.

This is done everyday in body shops to fix cars that blow their bags, break the windshield, alot get the dash frame bent.
just my 2 cents, hes putting it back on the same car ...

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

This is done everyday in body shops to fix cars that blow their bags, break the windshield, alot get the dash frame bent.
just my 2 cents, hes putting it back on the same car ...

Craig- As much as I hate to argue with you... you are wrong on this issue. First, if you were correct, everyone who buys a blue vin sticker to place on their door(many of us have done this) would be breaking the law.,that is a Federal VIN tag as well. Additionally, there was a famous case where a guy sold a fake HEMI 'Cuda where he got caught making a new VIN tag and even forging a letter from the Gavin (or whatever his name is) guy who is the "expert" on Mopars. This guy was prosecuted for altering VINS and the buyer got screwed. Anyway, below is a clip from the story ther Hemmings ran.

Brown, told HMM "there is absolutely no reason for anyone to remove a VIN tag." In contrast, neighboring Connecticut has one of the most liberal laws applying to what occurred in the Papadopoulos case. The VIN may be removed by the car's owner for restoration or repair, according to state laws there. However, the law applies to the VIN, not the tag itself, so as long as the "original" tag is re-attached to the vehicle it is not a Class "A" Misdemeanor in Connecticut.

So as we see here, VIN's tags, in certian states, CAN be remnoved for repair and re attached. Even in States that do not allow any touching of the VIN, I seriously doubt you would be prosecuted for repairing a VIN tag that looks like this guys VIN tag does,as long as you don;t SWAP VIN's, as I suggested earlier, you will be ok. ANd if it in fact a FELONY to remove a VIN, then every single restored TA out there with a nice new reproduction door VIN tag is headed to jail. That tag is just as much a federal VIN tag as the dash tag is..

And here is one more comment from this article:
However, he reiterates that "it is not illegal to make a clone or recreation car, but it is illegal to make a VIN plate, or remove, change, or alter it for use on another car. With the prices of muscle cars skyrocketing, there is an increase in this practice to dupe the public out of their money for a car that was never made."

Here is the entire story:
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature16.html

SO, it is not illegal to repair a vin plate as long as no swapping is involved..