Ugly, bland and over priced.

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by ClassJ

Personally. I love watching F.A.S.T racing. Always humbling to watch a guy with a stock appearing car on bias plies click off 11's. Iron heads, block, carb, etc. All factory parts (with the usual exception being the stroked block). A mild cam, etc.

The amount of work that goes into those cars to look that way and go that hard is impressive.

And they make it look so easy !!!

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[RandyW]

The only fair comparison is pure stock for each vehicle, once you start modding you just prove who has the best builder or the most money or both.

[triathlonx13]

Looks like the stock guys are going to have to use the original oil

OK - Then is it impressive that 40 year technology basically runs the same as today's modern beasts ... and with out the depreciation? What happened to progress ?

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[ClassJ]

Pontiac could have certainly built hotter cars through the years. Not that some of the firebirds were not great. I just wonder why it took 30 years t bring the gto back, only to kill it after 3 years.

[kookykrispy]

This is a retarded thread.

[Dick Boneske]

kookykrispy,
You're right!! Kind of like a post comparing Firebirds to GTO's--except I don't think any of us GTO or Firebird fans have such angry feelings about "other guys" preferences. I've owned all the Pontac categories, GTO's (old and new), Firebirds, and big Pontiacs. I love them all--just some more than others.

You know, what rings in my ears is the initial reaction to the '04 GTO. Many old GTO fans said it needed hood scoops and left and right dual exhausts. Lo and behold, the '05 had them!! Did any of you wonder why Pontiac only sold a limited number of cars? Did any of you think it was because the initial agreement was to import no more than 18,000 units per year (GM/UAW agreement)?

Also, the last ('99-'02?) Firebird Trans Ams and Formulas built were about as mean looking, best performing cars Pontiac ever sold. Why didn't they sell?

If anyone thinks any of these cars would have sold better with the 50 year-old Pontiac V8,___you can answer this question yourself.

[kookykrispy]

Hey look this car is also a "gto":

Can it be in the club too???

[Bill S]

I live in both camps, classic Pontiac, my ’67 Firebird with a 455 and all the tricked I learned from this forum, HPP and books; and my 2004 GTO I have owned for four years. What baffles me is the classic guys insinuate Pontiac was perfect back in the day and Pontiac (okay GM) completely screwed up today with the 04-06 GTO. First of all, out of ALL the 64-74 GTOs produced, what percentage came with the “good” stuff. Yep, the ‘log” exhaust manifolds, the two speed automatic, and go ahead order AC and look at the rear gears you got. Yes, real performance enhancing stuff there. How many came with 3.90 or 4.33 gears or even a limited slip in the rear ? Yeah, the cone clutch Safety Trac and 10 bolt were the best thing in the world. 64-66, tripower vs Carter 4 barrel ? And who can forget the great 67-69 two barrel option ? Come on, how many were Ram air II and IV vs the standard 355 / 350 hp 400 engine ?

I love the time I talking about my new GTO and telling this older guy many run in the thirteens in the quarter mile. He says “that’s nothing, mine ran in the twelves back in the day” I reply “ Really ? totally stock?” “Well no, it had a 421, dual quads, headers / opened exhaust, 4.xx something gears, slicks, big cam” etc, etc.
Yep, apples to apples right there.

So take away the 3.90 gears , Edelbrock intake , Holley, roller cam, headers,……what will it do then in the quarter ?
Oh, so if new ‘stock’ GTO gets a CAI, ported TB, 3.90 gears, headers, and bigger cam, will it run 13.12 ? Um, quicker than that. AND get over twenty mpg, handle better, brake better. Yes, there IS progress after 40 years.
FAST cars are far from stock and are lightened. Even PS has compression increased and of the best cam selection, 3.90 gears, RAM air manifolds, etc.
I love the old Pontiacs. Many of them have great style, and modified, have awesome performance. I would never part with my ‘bird, had it since 1980.
However, my new goat is a great daily driver compared to the typical classic muscle car.
Great leather interior, awesome seats, sound system, good gas mileage, AC, four wheel ABS disc brakes, six speed stick. Man, does anyone even remember the time when you could not even get a manual transmission in the “good” performance cars?

I am happy with both Pontiacs I own, classic and new. I could never understand people who feel it is their duty to knock other’s possession (which were worked hard for, especially). Does it make them feel better about themselves?

[Sirrotica]

Great post Bill, that pretty much sums it up for me also. If it doesn't have an arrowhead emblem it's not in my garage, and I own new and old alike. They both have their merits and shortcomings, as do all the manufacturers cars old and new. I just happen to like Pontiacs over all the other brands I have worked on or driven. And when I raced short track dirt cars I only raced Pontiacs and did well with them. I've owned many classic GTOS as well as the late model GTO. I've had 1st 2nd and 4th gen Firebirds. All types of Full size cars, I even owned an 81 Bonneville diesel. I've owned 2 Fieros and we just bought a Vibe. I really do like the Stratostreak V8 and I like it above all the other powerplants Pontiac has used over the years. Funny thing is I don't see any Ford guys saying the FE (330-428) motor is the only Ford motor that was ever made that was any good. Same for the chevy camp, Not many W motor (348-409) holdouts that I know of. Why is it then that the Pontiac guys can't get past the fact that the factory isn't going to produce anymore Stratostreak V8s. The engine was way ahead of it's time in 1955 and it went pretty much unchanged except for improvements til 1979. The thing being is if Pontiac would have kept it's own engine I really don't think they would still be making the Stratostreak design. In the late 60s they were already looking at the Hemi headed OHC engine for a future powerplant. BTW the smallblock chevy isn't in any new chevies from the factory either. Just my 2 cents.

[red70goat]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

Well then explain to me how a NAME CHANGE was going to make it sell better. Please...I'll be waiting on you troll.

Oh fyi, quickest, best handling, best emissions, best fuel economy, most comfortable GTO ever built. FACT.

Once again Mr_Gee_I_Don't _Know misses the point and demonstrates he is a true master of the obvious. No way in hell would people in the US have given a Monaro a 2nd look if it hadn't been tagged a GTO. Get a clue.

And please tell me where on this thread I had indicated that a real GTO is quicker, handles better, has better emissions, better fuel economy and is more comfortbale than the GM Monaro. And please don't tell me the VIN # makes it a GTO. Chrysler tried that same inbreeding stunt when they started tagging 6 cylinder Mitsubishis as Dodge Chargers. You need a better argument Skippy.

[Mr_GTO]

Originally Posted by red70goat

Once again Mr_Gee_I_Don't _Know misses the point and demonstrates he is a true master of the obvious. No way in hell would people in the US have given a Monaro a 2nd look if it hadn't been tagged a GTO. Get a clue.

And please tell me where on this thread I had indicated that a real GTO is quicker, handles better, has better emissions, better fuel economy and is more comfortbale than the GM Monaro. And please don't tell me the VIN # makes it a GTO. Chrysler tried that same inbreeding stunt when they started tagging 6 cylinder Mitsubishis as Dodge Chargers. You need a better argument Skippy.

Speculation. NEXT.

Really? Pontiac and GM and The US Gov't said it was a GTO. NEXT.

[Sirrotica]

Nope, Holden called it the HSV/GTO before Pontiac ever had anything to do with the car, so the fact is, it had a GTO model designation already. Pontiac didn't just hang the GTO name on it, it was already a Monaro model designation to begin with. I guess that shoots the theory that it isn't a real GTO. And don't forget Pontiac took the name from Ferrari in 1964. I guess that makes all the Pontiac GTOs not real?? Keep the facts straight.

[87LC2]

While waiting in a line of traffic at a toll booth trying to get off the PA turnpike, a '00-'04 Mustang GT rolled up next to me. There were three guys in their mid twenties in the Mustang. As they came up even with me, the driver yelled "Nice car,man!" as I was starting to roll forward. I looked over and they were all smiles, checking out my 2006 GTO and giving me the thumbs up.

Three Mustang guys, not afraid to give compliments to a GM car.


go figure


I stopped at a gas station in the Poconos to get a soda, didn't need gas and everyone was looking at the GTO like it was a Ferrari. I felt sort of weired, as I like not standing out.

QSM would have been the best color choice, but I fell in love with the IBM.

I constantly see kids pointing at my car, I thought it would be more of a sleeper than it's turning out to be.

[FHummel]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

ok...ok...alright.... When I say "stock" - I will clarify:

Here is my GTO (3,700 and change lbs with me in it)

I've run 13.12 in the quarter and should be able to hit 12.9s with correct suspension and tire set up. (Car is loaded with full interior radio, amp, etc.)

This is my car "as it ran 13.12”

Motor:
.030 TRW pistons
.010 stock crank
** rotating assembly NOT balanced
# 62 Heads (no porting) with 7/16 screw in studs
RA IV ground cam (roller)
Roller lifters
Roller Rockers
9.5 compressions at best
Hooker Super Comp Headers
RPM Edelbrock Intake
Holler 800 cfm carb
Power steering
Manual brakes (that drag... need to fix)

Transmission:
Muncie 4 speed
Center Force II Clutch

Rear End:
GM 12 Bolt - 3.90 gears

Tires:
DOT 9” Hoosiers 26” diameter on a 16” rim.

Things that are holding me back from hitting 12.9s are:
Dragging front brakes (need to replace prop.valve.)
Front Sway Bar (need to remove)
Need 15” rim in back with wider tire… or maybe taller??? (I think best case would be DOT M/Ts 28x11.5
Get rid of my extra firm shocks and get some loose shocks up front and medium shocks in the back.

Note? I have a hard time hooking this car up because of stiff street suspension and the fact it’s a stick car.

Sounds like a really nice setup, but not really "stock". The CR you have indicated should be a bit higher, say in the 10.5 to 10.75 (or higher) unless you have compensated with dished pistons (which would be a good idea), or thicker head gaskets. Original uncut 62 heads are listed in the range I've stated. I think you probably had the heads 'trued' at least with skim cut which would raise CR. The Edelbrock intake may or may not help, because the stock GM manifolds actually flowed quite well. The 800 cfm carb is about 50 cfm more than the stock quadrajet. The headers are a definite 'plus' for performance as would larger, freer flowing exhaust/muffler/tail pipes (which I suspect you have, but did not state). A roller cam, rockers and lifters are certainly not stock, plus I suspect you are running 1.65 ratio rockers, not the stock 1.50 ratio. A 3.90 gear was stock optional rear gear - the stock 04-06 ratio is 3.46 - so a slight advantage for the 1/4 mile run, but not beyond that. The new "GTOs" are a sure runaway from the older cars above the 120 mile per hour range. The '05 will do 140 (at least) in 4th gear before you hit the limiter (thankfully!). I have one of each (an '05, 6M and a '70, 455 HO, 4 speed) and know how to make each one perform. I was 27 when the old GTOs came along and drove two new ones - a '67, 4 speed and a '71, 455 HO, 4 speed. Both were fun drivers as is the '70 I now have, but I have to tell you that the '05 is a lot more fun (yes, I'm now 71 and still call driving these cars "fun"!).
Why did I enter into this 'conversation'? Just wanted to add my perspective and observations.
As I said at the opening, sounds like you have a really nice setup and I hope you get to enjoy it a long time. But, please compare apples to apples.
Best to you,
Frank

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by FHummel

Sounds like a really nice setup, but not really "stock". The CR you have indicated should be a bit higher, say in the 10.5 to 10.75 (or higher) unless you have compensated with dished pistons (which would be a good idea), or thicker head gaskets. Original uncut 62 heads are listed in the range I've stated. I think you probably had the heads 'trued' at least with skim cut which would raise CR. The Edelbrock intake may or may not help, because the stock GM manifolds actually flowed quite well. The 800 cfm carb is about 50 cfm more than the stock quadrajet. The headers are a definite 'plus' for performance as would larger, freer flowing exhaust/muffler/tail pipes (which I suspect you have, but did not state). A roller cam, rockers and lifters are certainly not stock, plus I suspect you are running 1.65 ratio rockers, not the stock 1.50 ratio. A 3.90 gear was stock optional rear gear - the stock 04-06 ratio is 3.46 - so a slight advantage for the 1/4 mile run, but not beyond that. The new "GTOs" are a sure runaway from the older cars above the 120 mile per hour range. The '05 will do 140 (at least) in 4th gear before you hit the limiter (thankfully!). I have one of each (an '05, 6M and a '70, 455 HO, 4 speed) and know how to make each one perform. I was 27 when the old GTOs came along and drove two new ones - a '67, 4 speed and a '71, 455 HO, 4 speed. Both were fun drivers as is the '70 I now have, but I have to tell you that the '05 is a lot more fun (yes, I'm now 71 and still call driving these cars "fun"!).
Why did I enter into this 'conversation'? Just wanted to add my perspective and observations.
As I said at the opening, sounds like you have a really nice setup and I hope you get to enjoy it a long time. But, please compare apples to apples.
Best to you,
Frank

All good points and fair comments.
Note: PHS Documented that my car had the 3.90 gear option (more importantly -they where in option back then. My roller hydralic cam/lifter combo are not "stock". I did that for engine life.... Cam lift/grind is the same as RAM Air 4 cam (not stock for 1968 - but of the times). Exhaust is 2.5" (I think stock was 2.25?) As for the compression - Yup, modified pistons to put me in the pump gas world. The head flow was not touched - I think they flow like... 206 cfm (or what ever the factory spec is). With the cubes of my motor and the rpm range I don't even think I'm utilizing the "extra 50 cfms".

What ever the case - my car is pretty basic - and I have never had a new GTO (stock?)(any year) beat me on the track. It's great when the young kids are in the stands telling their Dads "I hope the old red GTO beats the new GTO!!!!"

Also note: New GTOs are cool - Just not the same (not apples to apples I guess)

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[triathlonx13]

Additionally - My rockers are 1.5

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[FHummel]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

Additionally - My rockers are 1.5

.

The reason I thought you might be using the 1.65 rockers is because that was what was originally used with the Ram Air 4 cam to make full use of the grind. Of course that may not affect its use in your setup without the 614 heads which had better flow than the 62s.
Still a nice setup.
Frank

[noyz1@hotmail.com]

I love my 05 GTO. & yes It's a GTO. I love the fact when I pull up to a stop light I don't see a half dozen others just like mine. Rustangs are a dime a dozen, slow , wayover priced & pourly built. Yes even the mighty gt500 suxs- I ran one & he wasn't even close. I like the old GTO's as well, but to say the new Goats aren't Goats is just plain stupid- don't be a hater- drive one & you will see.

[6806goats]

Noyz1, I hear ya man. I've been watching this thread with great distain. Those who only think the older Goats are the only GTO's to own will never get it. Your loss dudes. YOu may not like that it looks like a Cavalier or was made overseas but the damn thing is better built than anything GM America has built in a long long time and that includes our older Goats. Times change along with technology. At least we had the chance for 3 years to own another GTO with an American engine. How about this? Any GTO built after 1969 is crap! That'd piss a lot of you off right? How did the 74 GTO/Ventura ever get built and yet today many people still like them? I could give a rats a$$ if you think the new GTO is crap or not. Ok I guess that ain't true or I wouldn't be on the box. The older Goats are awesome and give you a thrill...cool that's what their for. SO how about stop knocking the enjoyment that the owners of new GTO are enjoying. Did it ever occur to you that those of us who own the new GTO look up in homage to the old school GTO? They don't build old GTO's any more and for some of us this is our shot at 1.owning a new car 2.owning a new GM(this is the only new GM I have even considered) 3.That we get a Holden Monaro...even if it gets rebadged as a Pontiac GTO.

Maybe the Pontiac GTO moniker did bring it out to the US market...which is a good thing. If we built the GTO in the US, following some of the crap I've seen come out of GM America, it would be junk. (based on the 2009 Chevy Impala I rented a month ago). The new Camaro stands a chance because part of it is built in Australia. You should be thankful that the GTO line continued with a car of this caliber instead of bashing the damn thing. Could care less if I get banned off this site. The attitude of some of you has me wanting to find another vendor to buy parts for my 68. I actually just came here to see if one of you bashers were the same person on one of the G8 forums. Guess the hatred still continues. Out

[dedsleds]

I'D BUY ONE IF COULD'VE AFFORD IT. WAS GOING TO TRADE IN OR SELL OFF MY WIFE'S 01 GTP GP SC, BUT MONEY IS TIGHT A LITTLE, AND THERE IS NOTHING MAJORLY WRONG WITH THE GP SO FAR. IT MOVES OUT PRETTY GOD ALSO WITH SOME MODS. SHE LIKE'S IT ALSO. WHEN IT IS TIME TO DUMP IT I'LL LOOK AT A USED GTO OR G8..I THINK BOTH ARE REALLY COOL, AND BLEND IN ENOUGH TO WHERE ONE ISN'T AFFRAID TO DRIVE IT SOMEWHERE, LIKE A STORE OR RESTRAUNT. STILL PARKING IT FAR AWAY THOUGH...