[WQ59B]

Hypothetical :: in the '60s, if Car X off the line at the Pontiac MI 'home' plant was a Bonneville with a VIN of (say) -10050, and the next car off the line was a Grand Prix, would it's VIN be -10051?

Or would each model line have their own ascending counts? I'm betting that within a plant, each car that came off the line would be 'prior car numeric plus 1'.

I know it works that way [-10050, -10051] in '57, as the 'spread' for Bonnevilles is at least 15,xxx when only 630 were built... tho '57 Bonnes didn't get a model-specific VIN prefix.

[mzbk2l]

My CT6-V was built in Hamtramck along with the Chevy Impala, Buick LaCrosse, etc. I've seen gaps of 3,000 VINs between Vs that were only built a few weeks apart (and there weren't 3,000 V's built), so it appears at that plant anyway that every car off the line got a sequential VIN, regardless of platform.

I don't know how this would work on a factory with multiple lines; I toured Lansing Car Assembly in college and they had 3 lines (2 automated and 1 manual) each producing 400+ Olds Aleros, Intrigues, and Pontiac Grand Ams per shift.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by WQ59B

Hypothetical :: in the '60s, if Car X off the line at the Pontiac MI 'home' plant was a Bonneville with a VIN of (say) -10050, and the next car off the line was a Grand Prix, would it's VIN be -10051?

Or would each model line have their own ascending counts? I'm betting that within a plant, each car that came off the line would be 'prior car numeric plus 1'.

I know it works that way [-10050, -10051] in '57, as the 'spread' for Bonnevilles is at least 15,xxx when only 630 were built... tho '57 Bonnes didn't get a model-specific VIN prefix.

Probably not. The next car after 10050 might not be 10051. It might be 10066 or 10045 some other number.

Cars are not necessarily built in VIN order in Pontiac and many other plants.

Pontiac Michigan had a 7 lane accumulator/bank, so that bodies could be routinely pulled from any one of the rows to help level the downstream workload: can't have too many tripowers in a row, can't have too many manual trans in a row, can't have too many A/C cars in a row, etc. This also allows bodies to be stored in case they are missing some critical component, like a special engine or rear axle, and also allows bodies to be moved out of process for extended repairs. If the situation is really dire bodies and/or chassis can be "cut in" or "cut out" using a forklift truck. So even though the VINs (the numbers themselves) are pulled in sequence the cars are not necessarily built in that order.

Think of it like a checkbook. You write the checks in sequence but they are not necessarily cashed and cleared in that order.

Having said that - the cars were not VINd by model type. So from one Grand Prix to the next or one Bonne to the next the sequential portion of the VIN was not controlled in any fashion.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mzbk2l

I don't know how this would work on a factory with multiple lines; I toured Lansing Car Assembly in college and they had 3 lines (2 automated and 1 manual) each producing 400+ Olds Aleros, Intrigues, and Pontiac Grand Ams per shift.

Typically on multiple lines within the same plant there is some other character to provide differentiation: for example Line 1 might start with 100001 and Line 2 might start with 500001. Or the model description portion of the VIN can provide differentiation.

K

[TAKerry]

I have created a Tenth Anniversary Registry. I have about 100 cars listed to date. Some of the date codes on the body tags are contradictory. For example there are cars with a lower vin and have a later dated cowell tag compared to other cars with similar vins or even higher vin no.s.

Question is, at what point is the body tag installed compared to the vin?

[sdbob]

Thanks Keith for the info. Amazing. I guess there is logic to the system used.

[WQ59B]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

Question is, at what point is the body tag installed compared to the vin?

Data plates were installed by Fisher Body, so; first. VIN would be generated by Pontiac Assembly.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Just covering 1968 - 1981 ..... Data plates , VIN plates , upper metal dash painted and windshield all installed at Fisher.
Firewall-Back was complete when it left.

VIN was assigned when Buildsheet was generated.
Bsheet came first , with an assigned VIN .
The data plate wasn't stamped out until body build actually started.

I don't know for sure which plate was riveted to the body first.
Perhaps the data plate.
Seems they were installed before paint - and the VIN installed after paint .
The VIN plates were strictly controlled.


I think the BEST way to word the question would be
Did the VIN's run sequential all across the board as the build orders were produced
Or did each series have its own running count ?

I don't know that answer , never paid close attention , just guessing each series had its own count .
Would take an in-depth case study of PMD plant cars of all types within a given year model .

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Just covering 1968 - 1981 ..... Data plates , VIN plates , upper metal dash painted and windshield all installed at Fisher.
Firewall-Back was complete when it left.

VIN was assigned when Buildsheet was generated.
Bsheet came first , with an assigned VIN .
The data plate wasn't stamped out until body build actually started.

I don't know for sure which plate was riveted to the body first.
Perhaps the data plate.
Seems they were installed before paint - and the VIN installed after paint .
The VIN plates were strictly controlled.

Good input, and correct on all counts.

I have personally handled pre-production VIN plates and they have to be signed for and accounted for.

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I think the BEST way to word the question would be
Did the VIN's run sequential all across the board as the build orders were produced

Yes (more or less).

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Or did each series have its own running count ?

No.

K

[unruhjonny]

I had understood (possibly incorrectly) that the vin number was more over tied to the order number;
So as an example in the Norwood plant in 1970 there were Firebirds, Camaros, and Novas being built;
Car could have been on the assembly line in an order such as: Camaro - Nova - Camaro - Firebird- Nova - Nova
And the order numbers would have been specific to each manufacturer and model;
Although in my mind, the Firebirds going down the line should have been fairly numeric (issues causing cars to be pulled off the line not with standing), on the merits of multiple vehicles/marques going down the line, the y probably were not numerically going one after the other.
I am unsure if the order number was assigned at the plant, or if it was higher up.

I was hoping to have some of this clarified and I went so far as to buy the Norwood book, but it was written from a historical perspective, mostly about the plant, and changes therein, so very little historical vehicle information is given...

[Keith Seymore]

The order number kicks everything off. Every car is ordered, whether by a dealer (for inventory), by a dealer (based on a customer's exact specifications) or by an internal GM entity (Marketing/show vehicle, Engineering Development or durability test, etc).

By the way - every vehicle is paid for before being released to production, by any of those listed above. The assembly plant will not build it unless it is paid for.

Once the dealer order is forwarded to a specific final assembly location a "PVI" (Primary Vehicle Identifier) is created. This is the handle used to identify the vehicle until the body shop sequence number (or carrier sequence number), the trim sequence number and the Final or G/A (general assembly) sequence number are generated.

For plants that have accumulator/banks after cab shop and before trim, and then after trim but before final (so - Pontiac Michigan, Flint, Mishawaka, Janesville, etc) each of those numbers can be different. For plants that build straight through, with no banks, (like Fremont) those would all be the same.

As BVZ said the VIN is pulled when the build sheet is created, printed and distributed throughout the plant (there are multiple build sheets for each vehicle, plus some jobs get a whole packet of all the build sheets).

The VIN is simply a part to be put on the correct vehicle, like a Mulroney window label, a tune up label, or the SPID label. Nobody cares about the VIN in the assembly plant for other than that; the GA sequence number is the "gold source" when referring to or tracking the progress of a specific vehicle.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Here's a little example I made up to help explain, in a different discussion:



Some nuances I built in there to make some specific points:

a) Vehicle order numbers: those are real live actual dealer order numbers. That's how they look in terms of alphanumerics, and in order (they are received in order, in blocks, but get all jumbled up). I've never seen any kind of rhyme or reason (or intelligence) in how the order numbers are constructed.

b) PVI - is the primary tracking number prior to GA and is established after the dealer order number is received at the plant and released for production. The vehicle cabs and boxes were built in PVI order through the body shop but shuffled going into paint, due to repair, rework or part availability.

c) GA sequence - the cab and box get shuffled again, coming out of paint before dropping into trim/final. This is again due to any repair or rework or part availability, but additionally to balance the workload for the people in trim and final. Said differently, you can't have too many air conditioning, manual trans, cab roof marker lights, dually boxes, etc (high work content) vehicles in a row. Gotta spread 'em out a bit.

d) Notice how the VINs increment up one by one within a brand. That is not always the case but I have left it that way for the purposes of this example.

e) Notice how there is a GMC every 9th or 11th job, and a Cadillac every 20th job. That was intentional. The VIN sequence reflects the production volume of that brand built, too, ie: at this point 200,000 Chevy's have been built (317388 minus 100001), but only 20,000 GMCs (521102 minus 500001) and only 10,000 Cadillacs (610101 minus 600001). While this example was truck specific the concept would apply to an assembly plant that is building Impalas, Firebirds and Camaros down the same line. Or Buicks, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles and Chevrolets.

f) Those vehicle owners are for pre-production internal users. For regular production that would be the actual ultimate customer (Keith Seymore, or Bruceman, or DavisChevy, etc)

K

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The order number was like a Purchase Order number - generated from the dealership that ordered the car. They are displayed on PHS Dealer Invoices . And are usually completely random from one dealer to another.

Or generated by the Zone , if it was for zone inventory.

It was tied to the particular car , but not a factor in its production run or vin .

Muscle-Era mopars stamp their order numbers on the fender tags. ( TV show factoid )

EDIT :
Tree'd by Seymore

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

e) Notice how there is a GMC every 9th or 11th job, and a Cadillac every 20th job. That was intentional. The VIN sequence reflects the production volume of that brand built, too, ie: at this point 200,000 Chevy's have been built (317388 minus 100001), but only 20,000 GMCs (521102 minus 500001) and only 10,000 Cadillacs (610101 minus 600001). While this example was truck specific the concept would apply to an assembly plant that is building Impalas, Firebirds and Camaros down the same line. Or Buicks, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles and Chevrolets.

While re-reading this I am reminded of one more complication:

For Pontiacs in Pontiac Michigan: V8 engine equipped vehicle VINs start with 100001; 6 cylinder equipped vehicles start with 600001 and count up independent of each other.

That little detail right there blows away any chance of vehicles being built in a continuous VIN order.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

EDIT :
Tree'd by Seymore

BOOM baby!

K

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Probably not. The next car after 10050 might not be 10051. It might be 10066 or 10045 some other number.

Cars are not necessarily built in VIN order in Pontiac and many other plants.

Pontiac Michigan had a 7 lane accumulator/bank, so that bodies could be routinely pulled from any one of the rows to help level the downstream workload: can't have too many tripowers in a row, can't have too many manual trans in a row, can't have too many A/C cars in a row, etc. This also allows bodies to be stored in case they are missing some critical component, like a special engine or rear axle, and also allows bodies to be moved out of process for extended repairs. If the situation is really dire bodies and/or chassis can be "cut in" or "cut out" using a forklift truck. So even though the VINs (the numbers themselves) are pulled in sequence the cars are not necessarily built in that order.

Think of it like a checkbook. You write the checks in sequence but they are not necessarily cashed and cleared in that order.

Having said that - the cars were not VINd by model type. So from one Grand Prix to the next or one Bonne to the next the sequential portion of the VIN was not controlled in any fashion.

K

Thanks Keith for explaining the role of the accumulator (body) bank @ the Pontiac home plant & how the builds were spread out. Several of my projects came out of Pontiac plant, one the T-37 HO Coupe is within three ViN's of a same color (cardinal red) 71 GTO 455HO convert that I looked at many years ago in California. Both are heavy option content M22 equip cars. It totally makes sense there is no way the two could have been built on the line, just a few cars apart.

By chance did Lakewood GA plant also have an accumulator bank? With all the high content '71 & 72 GP's & '72 Lux LeMans I've parted or parted on that came out of that plant in, just makes one wonder.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

Thanks Keith for explaining the role of the accumulator (body) bank @ the Pontiac home plant & how the builds were spread out. Several of my projects came out of Pontiac plant, one the T-37 HO Coupe is within three ViN's of a same color (cardinal red) 71 GTO 455HO convert that I looked at many years ago in California. Both are heavy option content M22 equip cars. It totally makes sense there is no way the two could have been built on the line, just a few cars apart.

By chance did Lakewood GA plant also have an accumulator bank? With all the high content '71 & 72 GP's & '72 Lux LeMans I've parted or parted on that came out of that plant in, just makes one wonder.

Thanks for the reply, OPH; unfortunately I am not familiar with the Lakewood process.

K

[unruhjonny]

Thank you VERY much Keith for taking the time to type that out.

That lends clarity where I previously had none.

[TAKerry]

Yes, thank you. This would make a good smoke signal article.

When looking at a body tag (firebird/TA) there are some obvious no.s But there are also a couple of numbers on there that I have heard multiple times that 'they are factory no.s, and dont mean anything, or 'No one knows what they really do'. Would these be the GA numbers or the PVI numbers?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by TAKerry

Yes, thank you. This would make a good smoke signal article.

When looking at a body tag (firebird/TA) there are some obvious no.s But there are also a couple of numbers on there that I have heard multiple times that 'they are factory no.s, and dont mean anything, or 'No one knows what they really do'. Would these be the GA numbers or the PVI numbers?

Yes; probably. For example, for some plants the pickups had the last three digits of the PVI numbers stamped on the edge of the cowl. None of the truck enthusiast boards had any idea what that was.

I think the overall concept here is that people are interested in the order the cars are built (so they can say theirs was the first, or last, or whatever) but the only number they are aware of is the VIN. They don't know about all these other build sequence numbers, which is really what they would like to know, and since they don't know the other sequence numbers are a thing they assign that power to the VIN which it doesn't actually have.

Or - conversely - they could actually be "nothing" (ie, straight up graffiti). I've seen signatures, love notes to ladies downstream, lunch cost calculations, and numbers for their bookie among others.

K