[north]

I decided to enter the dealer codes into my 69 GTO PHS collection (about 840 GTO's including 330 Judges at the moment.

I'm about a quarter of the way through the process and some interesting stuff has come up...

Dealer Order Numbers (DON)

A few observations, the low figure (2 or 3 digit) DON seen on Judges are only for Zone ordered pattern judges and seem to follow very roughly in chronological order with the VIN by plant.
Later Judges (zone or dealer order codes) have typical 5 digit DON
Zone ordered regular GTO's also have regular DON's. So seems like those two or three digit DON's were exclusive to early pattern judge orders.
Zone cars invoiced after the regular 69 model run had ended have a blank box where you'd normally see the DON.
The regular DON numbers don't indicate any pattern but they seem to be originated by Pontiac rather than being the number each dealer assigned to his own orders.

As I enter the other plants codes to my spreadsheet I'll post here if I see a change in the patterns mentioned above

[Keith Seymore]

I’ve been looking at dealer order numbers for about 40 years and have never seen any intelligence encoded in them. They do increment up numerically, in batches (based on the ordering entity), but the prefix does not seem to have any rhyme or reason.

In the full size truck example below the builds were received in dealer order number sequence, but were re-sequenced by the receiving plant based on internal constraints (assembler work load leveling or material availability) into "Primary Vehicle Identifier" order before the builds were released for production. After the build is underway (through body shop and paint) they are shuffled yet again prior to final line into General Assembly sequence order.

The GA sequence would be the order they popped off the end of the assembly line.

K

[north]

Not Judge specific but I stumbled onto this in the process of entering the DON's. I always wondered what the significance of the actual sequential VIN was. I always assumed they represented the total number of Pontiacs built in a given plant at the time of production.

It seems that that is about right. There were 12 different assembly plants that built 69 Pontiacs. I figured what the last sequential VIN number was in each plant (easy with the 9 A and F body plants that I have tons of data on, I guesstimated the other 3 (B body only plants) based on a few sample PHS's and compared the VIN sequence to the build date and extrapolated run rates to arrive at total production for the year, here,s what it came out like...:

A Atlanta: 34,000 (only A body produced here)
B Baltimore: 79,000 (only A body produced here)
C Southgate: 30,000 (only B body produced here)
E Linden: 92,000 (only B body produced here)
G Framingham 49,000 (only A body produced here)
L Van Nuys 20,000 (only F body produced here)
N Norwood 20,000 (only F body produced here)
P Pontiac 268,000 (A, B & G body produced here)
R Arlington 91,000 (A & B body produced here)
U Lordstown 39,000 (only F body produced here)
X Kansas City 62,000 (only B body produced here)
Z Fremont 31,000 (only A body produced here)

Total is 815,000 cars, if you add the 47,000 six cylinder cars (they had their own VIN sequence that started with a 6 instead of 1, 2 or 3) you get 872,000. This is almost exactly the same as the actual 69 run of 871,000. For what it's worth I didn't work the numbers back to the actual production total so this probably is what the sequential VIN's represented. All major plants back then produced a few hundred thousand cars a year. The plants apart from the home plant have low production because they produced for the other GM divisions.

A few GTO specific bits most of you may already now...

Atlanta, Framingham and Pontiac only produced hardtop GTO's

Baltimore, Arlington and Fremont produced hardtops and convertibles.

Pontiac plant only starting building A bodies in mid April 69, and when this happened Baltimore stopped producing hardtop A bodies, producing only convertibles till the end of the run.

[johnta1]

While you are starting to add info to spreadsheet, might add the identification # to it?
Also printed at top right of the PHS.

Think BVZ suggested this at one time?

[MikeNoun]

We brought up the information about pattern Judges and the dealer order numbers < 00100 in the Oct 2016 issue of POCI's Smoke Signals.

Mike

[north]

I do record the invoice prefix but I haven’t recorded the actual invoice number in my spreadsheet since it appears to be purely a sequencial number as the invoices were produced regardless of plant etc

I’m too far in to do it this time but the next major rework I’ll perhaps add it.

[north]

I entered most of the Baltimore cars and noticed a few things.

First is that in both Atlanta and Baltimore there are occasional gaps in the VIN sequence that are too big for chance with the number of invoices I now have.

It seems like there were periods where they stopped building GTO’s for a few days. Perhaps they would do runs of 4 door sedans etc so now GTO’s ? Or perhaps they adjusted production because of rising inventory or inversely they needed to concentrate on other brands due to low inventory. perhaps shortages in pontiac or GTO specific parts (engine, dashpad etc)

Something very noticeable at Baltimore is that convertibles were built in batches. For a week or two there are no convertibles then for a week or two I have as many convertibles as hard-tops.

Maybe this was for efficiency?

[north]

Few other thoughts...

Cars sold in Canada all have a six digit (instead of 5) DON and so far always starts with a 2

The DON's must not be exclusive since being 5 digits or less (except Canada) means you only can have 99,999 different DON's. Pontiac produced 870,000 cars so almost 10 times around. Even if the DON was plant specific the home plant would have reused each DON almost 3 times.

[north]

As for the two digit DON's for the pattern judges, even if they only made 1,000 true pattern judges like Mike mentions in his article it seems odd because the highest pattern DON I've seen so far (all Atlanta and Baltimore done) is 80. There is duplication between the two plants in DON but I haven't seem 2 cars from a plant with the same DON yet. (I have 14 two digit DON pattern cars in Atlanta and 13 in Baltimore). So if the DON doesn't duplicate then the most two digit DON cars that could have been ordered is about 500, unless each DON was for more than 1 car?

All these two digit DON cars have invoice dates in February and a few in early March. Even cars that are pattern cars (in terms of options) invoiced later than mid March have normal 5 digit DON's.

[north]

Correction on the Canadian DON's, only the earlier in the model year cars have the 6 digit DONS's, later cars use 5 digit numbers that don't show a unique pattern.

[north]

Taking the opportunity to review my data quality I found this PHS, buyer beware!

I don't recall where I got it exactly but it was in 2014 on eBay or Hemmings.

I hope whomever bought it back then was aware of the forgery?

[johnta1]

I think we had a thread on it, possibly by you.


Here is a list I had which probably came from PY also on some Pattern Judges with the shipped date and DON's as North calls them and the invoice # plus I added some to it
(BVZ may have done it?)

Pattern Judge VIN's and DON's

VIN PHS date order# invoice
A115xxx 4-15-69 ----- ZAA650462
A119xxx 3-04-69 00017 ZAA544435
A120xxx 3-11-69 00021 ZAA562177
A115xxx 2-06-69 00030 ?
A117xxx 2-10-69 00042 ZAB503099
A117xxx 2-18-69 00049 ZAA503257
A1xxxxx 2-26-69 00050 ?
A118xxx ? ____ __00051 ?
A120xxx 4-03-69 00053 ZAA625890
A117xxx 2-18-69 00056 ZAB503237
A122xxx 3-07-69 16535 PAA555139
A121xxx 3-07-69 63129 PAA555274
A123xxx 3-13-69 32199 PAA571180


B151xxx 2-13-69 00021 ZBA490803
B154xxx 2-11-69 00022 ZBA482666
B152xxx 2-13-69 00027 ZBA490252
B155xxx 2-10-69 00035 ZBA477920
B156xxx ? ____ 00039 ZBA48610x
B158xxx 2-26-69 00040 ZBA?323??
B156xxx 2-26-69 00042 ZBA526808
B154xxx 2-05-69 00051 ZBA465704
B156xxx 2-21-69 00054 ZBA515052
B155xxx 2-19-69 00059 ZBA506684
B1xxxxX 2-07-69 00060 ?
B158xxx 2-28-69 00061 ZBA533490
B158xxx 2-28-69 00064 ZBB535345
B157xxx 3-06-69 00066 ?
B1xxxxx 2-17-69 00077 ?
B159xxx 2-20-69 98405 PBA511753 - not pattern Judge
B159xxx 2-24-69 84353 PBA517930
B160xxx 2-25-69 3605 PBL521511 (Canada)
B164xxx 3-13-69 24876 PBA570834


G125xxx 2-07-69 00017 ZGA453185 my phs has 1-30-69 ship
G126xxx 4-08-69 00019 ZGA630257
G126xxx 2-11-69 00035 ZGAxx1199
G127xxx ? ____ 00044 ZGA472457
G126xxx 2-04-69 00046 ZGA462340
G127xxx 2-07-69 00049 ZGA473200
G127xxx 2-18-69 00051 ZGA501274
G128xxx 2-07-69 00054 ZGA472714 01D
G127xxx 2-05-69 00058 ZGA465142
G126xxx 2-07-69 00060 ZGA873252
G128xxx 2-15-69 00068 ?
G128xxx 2-07-69 00071 ZGB476719
G128xxx 2-21-69 00076 ZGA513774
G128xxx 2-07-69 00081 ZGA476747
G126xxx ? ___ ?__ ? Pattern Judge?


R134xxx 2-07-69 00045 ZRA475849
R134xxx 2-19-69 00089 ZRA508695
R139xxx 3-03-69 00037 ZRA541396
R139xxx 8-08-69 ? ___ ZRB874230
R139xxx 5-02-69 ? ___ ZRB694022
R141xxx 9-30-69 ? ___ ZRA886673


Z115xxx 1-31-69 44309 PZA457124
Z114xxx 2-05-69 00017 ZZA????
Z115xxx 2-25-69 00027 ZZB524869
Z115xxx 2-17-69 00032 ?
Z115xxx 2-07-69 00060 ?
Z115xxx 2-17-69 00071 ZZA500435
Z115xxx 2-14-69 ? ____ pattern car?
Z116xxx ? ____ 00086 ?
Z115xxx 02-12-69 00095 ZZA488453
Z115xxx 2-19-69 00103 ZZB508840
Z115xxx 2-12-69 00118 ZZA488631
Z115xxx 3-07-69 00119 ZZB557247
Z113xxx 1-04-69 00143 ? from buildsheet which was zone code
Z120xxx 4-09-69 ? ZZA637105 Pattern Judge?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Yes appears to be my previous account John.
Thanks for keeping it alive and making additions.

Mike and North's contributions gave me some new angles to approach the mysterious Pattern Order Numbers { 000xx }.
Still, the new angles didn't fit very well.

Best scenario is still a running total per plant - of Pattern Cars.

IF by chance it were related to individual zone regions {6} or individual zone offices {27} , we would likely have an account of repetition of an order number within a certain plant at this point.

For instance, some Patterns sold in NC came from Baltimore plant - some from Atlanta plant.
Some Patterns sold in Cali - were from Arlington plant.
etc . . . .
Those instances would create higher possibility for repetition if we apply the Order Numbers per region or individual zone.
So far, we don't have a repetition within a plant ... yet.

Some other things worth noting =

- still no Order Number below 00017 ?

- Mike's discovery suggests 1,000'ish Pattern Cars.
"Legend/Accepted Knowledge" trivia suggests 2,000'ish Pattern Cars.
Order Numbers per the 5 plants that produced the Early/Pattern Cars is suggesting more around 500'ish total units.

pick a number between 500 and 2000
i think we got duped just a little somewhere
So many Orange Cars with a fairly high survival rate.

Also consider our research has revealed almost total uniformity as Pattern Cars , built up to 3rd week of Feb 69. Even the few exceptions are very closely optioned to Pattern content.
3rd week { 2C } of Feb is where the Non-Patterns start up ... 99%

Now reconsider the factoid of no repetition of Order Numbers per plant.
Add in the factoid of near exclusiveness of Patterns from Early Jan through Mid Feb.
Just food for your thoughts is all i am saying.
2000 ?
1000 ?
500 or so ?

idunno, but intrigued a little more everytime i look at the data

[north]

Completed entering all the DON's and did a study of the Judges, some interesting tidbits...

Special DON Judges:
... 23% of the Judges (discounting illegible or blocked but not blank DON's) have the special short zone order numbers). This translates into about 1,600 Judges produced with this type of DON
... I was wrong about plants not having 2 cars with same special DON. I have 2 Atlanta Cars with order 00043 and two Baltimore cars with 59 (in both cases not the same dealer)
... For these reasons I suspect each of the 27 zone offices issued their own DON's. If they ordered 50-150 each averaging 60-70 each this would give you the 2,000 cars which my 24% isn't to far off from.
... The earliest invoice date with a special DON was jan 31st and the last was April 8th with the bulk being in Feb and first half of March
... lowest special DON is 17 and highest is 144 (bulk are between 20 and 80)
... All are pattern cars if you include M13 (3 speed manual) as pattern...
...16 M40 cars, 41 M20 and 3 M13
...10 M40's and 3 M20's had AC
...43 with black guts, 17 with parchment
...no export cars

Regular DON Judges:
... earliest US sold car is jan 31st (several earlier cars but they were all export)
... 59% are CR,
... first CR car with a Cordova is Feb 22, I have 5 other CR cars with Cordova before the first non CR car (Matador) on March 10th. sounds like non pattern but still CR was possible in second half of February but other colors were not released until March (delay due to stripes?)
... I can't find any pattern cars with normal DON's.

To Clarify my understanding of pattern car is as follows...
Hardtops only all with CR (no Vinyl top), black or parchment buckets with the following options...
All Pattern cars had the following 10 options...Judge, PDB, power steering, console, rallye gauges with clock, AM radio, deluxe belts with front shoulder, soft ray (all windows), remote mirror and Safe-T-Track (HD or regular duty if AC)
Pattern cars could have the M13 (no charge), the M20 or the M40.
Hood tach was present on all cars except if equipped with M40
AC was optional on all transmissions and it changed the HD STT to regular duty due to 3.23 axle ratio
all pattern cars will have 11, 12 or 13 options

[aldiaz1959]

Hi
I happened to have stumbled on info Judge I purchased
I am the owner of G125205 pattern Judge 00017. Framingham
From what I’m reading this appears to be the earliest produced. judge to date .

Here are the documents plus I’m sending photo of cowl tag

I have one question. For the group . On the build Sheet what does. “BY-PASS CODE 2 “ mean .
Because of the delivery location I believe this judge was sent to New York Auto show for April 5-13 International Auto show at the New York coliseum and ultimately end in Joe Oldhams book as the 0001 judge he tested and featured in his book. I believe 001. Was pattern judge 00017 the first. Judge to roll off Framingham.
I would like to hear some thought on my hypothesis
Thanks
Al




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Not sure how or why , but i just got a PY email notification for Aldiaz59's previous post from May 18 - today on Sep 29 ?

It is ''possible'' your Judge was the first one built at Framingham.

My opinion on it being a show circuit car or something of that nature , is no.
The paper trail doesn't support it.

Cars like that will most always have more than 1 invoice.
First invoice would reflect it being billed out to PMD Michigan, or to a Zone Office.
Buildsheet would have footnote in lower ledger in conjunction - like show car pool , marketing - display ....

Your Buildsheet reflects it charged to/through one of the Zone Inventory (xx-991) holding/storage lots.
The same zone inventory lot that appears on your invoice.
All the Pattern Cars followed that same protocol - as in All went to zone lots before going to their purchasing dealer.

But if the article you mention could be posted and scrutinized, it might help in some way , pro or con.

Don't know what the Bypass Code 2 related to specifically.
Have seen bypass codes on other Buildsheets in past, in various years/cars.
The 1B Cali/Fremont Pattern Car has the same Bypass Code too. fwiw

[north]

I also received this notification over the weekend, strange?

As for it's show history the shipping dates and ship to location don't mean much as many zone ordered cars were shipped to zone lots. None of this means your car wasn't used for show or magazine work, just that it does seem rather unlikely since it was invoiced to a dealer on january 30th, the week it was built. Special use cars tend to have a first PHS invoice to PMD engineering or marketing etc and then a second PHS some month's later to a dealer (with a discount notation marked on the invoice). If you think about it why would a dealer accept being invoiced in January at full price and paying for it within 5 days but only receiving it three months later as a now used and abused car?

I have documents for other Framingham cars with earlier VIN's, earlier trimtag dates and earlier ship dates. Actually 3 plants (B, G, Z) involved in early Judge production have similar start dates with 01B-01C tag dates and invoice dates starting the 23rd of January. The A and R plants seem to have started later (01E and early feb invoices).

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by north

I also received this notification over the weekend, strange?

..........

I have documents for other Framingham cars with earlier VIN's, earlier trimtag dates and earlier ship dates.

Must have been a ghost in the system when Aldiaz posted.
He also made the same post in another Judge Section thread at the same time.
I got a notify at the same time for it as well.

the "Early Production Judge ?????" thread
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...9&goto=newpost

But neither thread was bumped into the first listing page when i came on the site.
Aldiaz - did you make the posts back in May , or just yesterday ?

Originally Posted by north

I have documents for other Framingham cars with earlier VIN's, earlier trimtag dates and earlier ship dates.

Are you referring to Judges earlier than his from Framingham ?
Those would be interesting documents to see if that is the case.

[north]

I have the following on very early Framingham Judges.....
First by VIN has a Feb 25 invoice date with no trim tag date available but the VIN indicates late December assembly. It’s probably the 2nd invoice on the car, it’s sold to a dealer (zone order 119). It’s a TT black guts 4speed pattern car.

Next is another 4spd black pattern car with a VIN indicative of a 1st week Jan build but again this is probably a second invoice, mid May to a dealer with a blank order number, it’s a zone invoice also.

After that I have several cars with a 01C on the trim tag with invoice dates from Jan 27 to May

[north]

After having added a bunch more cars to my PHS listing(just hit 1,000) and the Judge count is now at 460 (thanks Tim!). Looking at Judge specs the extrapolations seem the same as early this year with a few more tidbits...

Of the 460 Judges in the listing I count 100 pattern cars, still translating to about 1,500-1,600 pattern cars. I broke down the pattern cars into 6 possible variations and here is how many of each I have...
Pattern 1 (3spd) 3
Pattern 2 (3pd, AC) 0
Pattern 3 (M20) 68
Pattern 4 (M20, AC) 5
Pattern 5 (Auto) 8
Pattern 6 (Auto, AC) 16

All these pattern cars have a 2-3 digit (DON) Dealer Order Number or a blank (no DON).
68 of the pattern cars had black buckets and 32 with parchment

Looking at Judges overall...

CR paint was used on 66% of all judges (56% of non-pattern judges) and 2% of non-judges
I have 17 Judge ragtops listed including a pair with adjoining VIN's
37 judges with a Cordova top
Also 8 judges have a bench seat and 4 of them are automatic
3 bucket seat Judges have an automatic on the column also
78% of Judges have STT, 60% have M20, 12% have M21, 22% have auto trans
11% have AC, 28%(36% of non-pattern) have red or whiteline tires
5 Judges with special paint and just one two tone