[nmoreilly]

On an original 69 build sheet - not the PHS - where would I find the engine unit number ?

Thanks in advance

Noel

[marxjunk]

stopped in 65ish

[nmoreilly]

Originally Posted by nmoreilly

On an original 69 build sheet - not the PHS - where would I find the engine unit number ?

Thanks in advance

Noel

Thanks

I had read that they appeared on the "billing history" up until 1968 (?) but not clear what document it would have appeared on after that. Intuitively, I thought it might have been the build sheet

[marxjunk]

i have seen mostly on 65 billing and some 66s early cars..

i have never seen one after 66 but someone here said it depends on the plant..when they stopped..ive had a bunch of 69 buildsheets and never saw it on one..and ive seen a bunch of sheets too

post the question in the Judge forum...theres a few that hang there and are pretty knowledgeable on documentation

[nmoreilly]

Originally Posted by marxjunk

i have seen mostly on 65 billing and some 66s early cars..

i have never seen one after 66 but someone here said it depends on the plant..when they stopped..ive had a bunch of 69 buildsheets and never saw it on one..and ive seen a bunch of sheets too

post the question in the Judge forum...theres a few that hang there and are pretty knowledgeable on documentation

Thanks Mark, I've seen a few 69 sheets - including mine - and where it says "engine number" the space is blank, mine is a Fremont car.

[muscle_collector]

some 68 cars billing history had the engine unit on it. and they also have the same billing history cards on 69 cars as well they just don't give them out. and some of them had the engine unit number on them also. no idea why some do and some don't.

[Greg Reid]

My Arlington built '68 has the EUN listed on the billing history.

[johnta1]

and where it says "engine number" the space is blank, mine is a Fremont car.

Can you post your build sheet?

The Billing History Card (BHC) is what usually had a place for the EUN.
(1968 last year?)

Most build sheets I have seen, didn't have a place for it?
(had a place for engine code)

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by nmoreilly

Thanks Mark, I've seen a few 69 sheets - including mine - and where it says "engine number" the space is blank, mine is a Fremont car.

I don't think the EUN was ever printed on any of the various broadcast sheets used to build the car. There were multiple broadcast sheets printed for each car. The size of the space leads me to suspect that number would be handwritten in once the EUN was known....sometime after the engine was set into the rolling chassis. Same for the other items across the top of the example sheet below.

The broadcast sheet that you have for your car....and all other broadcast sheets that others have located were almost all universally found stashed inside the car somewhere. The "last" broadcast sheet would likely be the one where some info was handwritten in and then sent back to Pontiac for billing. If the EUN was recorded...then it likely would have been added to that final build sheet....which would not get stashed in the car anywhere because it was included in the final QC document package.

For example, a broadcast sheet found under the rear carpet or rear seat would have been stashed there at the Fisher Body line. At that point in the process the engine hadn't been picked yet (pulled from the waiting area where all the assembled engines were kept).

I am curious why Pontiac felt the need to record the EUN anyway. In earlier years, before the partial VIN was added to the engines, then it makes sense. Afterwards not so much. Probably why some plants were better at recording that number than others. Maybe the EUN was tracked for quality control reasons?



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[nmoreilly]

Originally Posted by PurelyGTO68

I don't think the EUN was ever printed on any of the various broadcast sheets used to build the car. There were multiple broadcast sheets printed for each car. The size of the space leads me to suspect that number would be handwritten in once the EUN was known....sometime after the engine was set into the rolling chassis. Same for the other items across the top of the example sheet below.

The broadcast sheet that you have for your car....and all other broadcast sheets that others have located were almost all universally found stashed inside the car somewhere. The "last" broadcast sheet would likely be the one where some info was handwritten in and then sent back to Pontiac for billing. If the EUN was recorded...then it likely would have been added to that final build sheet....which would not get stashed in the car anywhere because it was included in the final QC document package.

For example, a broadcast sheet found under the rear carpet or rear seat would have been stashed there at the Fisher Body line. At that point in the process the engine hadn't been picked yet (pulled from the waiting area where all the assembled engines were kept).

I am curious why Pontiac felt the need to record the EUN anyway. In earlier years, before the partial VIN was added to the engines, then it makes sense. Afterwards not so much. Probably why some plants were better at recording that number than others. Maybe the EUN was tracked for quality control reasons?



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Interesting, thanks. The WW block in my RA IV is not the original but both are very close in build date and the casting date - within 6 weeks - would be consistent for both build dates. Was just kind of personally curious to see how close the EUN's might have been

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by nmoreilly

Interesting, thanks. The WW block in my RA IV is not the original but both are very close in build date and the casting date - within 6 weeks - would be consistent for both build dates. Was just kind of personally curious to see how close the EUN's might have been

Yeah, that would be something I would be curious about as well.

I recorded EUNs on about eight different 9792506 (as cast) blocks that all were cast on the same day (C118). The EUN varies from 655492 to 763184. Based on the data gathered so far, the EUN can vary by quite a bit even for blocks cast on the same day.

The earliest EUN on that list came from the BHC for my car. 655492. Invoice date of 5/27/68.....earliest known RA II GTO convertible. Built in Arlington TX.

I am aware of one other RA II GTO with an earlier build date (5/23/68) but its EUN is much later (703655). However, that car was assembled at the Pontiac plant so it makes sense that it could have an earlier invoice date with a later EUN date when compared to my car. This assumes the EUN is sequential.....if not then toss my theory out the window.

If the EUN is sequential.....then I have yet to see an earlier number on a deuce engine. Its kinda fun to explain to anyone who will listen that my car is the 2nd known GTO deuce built with the earliest engine. I know it doesn't mean much....just interesting to talk about.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by PurelyGTO68

The size of the space leads me to suspect that number would be handwritten

Negative - I've never seen a handwritten EUN -

Originally Posted by PurelyGTO68

in once the EUN was known....sometime after the engine was set into the rolling chassis.

Also "no". Once the engine is "picked" and hung on the motor line then the EUN is known. The "feeder" lines - like the motor line, front end sheet metal line, tire/wheel assemblies, axles - are all conveyed to the main line in build sequence. So once the engine is hung you are committed (other than something catastrophic happening, or if a vehicle is cut in/cut out of the build).

Originally Posted by PurelyGTO68

The broadcast sheet that you have for your car....and all other broadcast sheets that others have located were almost all universally found stashed inside the car somewhere. The "last" broadcast sheet would likely be the one where some info was handwritten in and then sent back to Pontiac for billing. If the EUN was recorded...then it likely would have been added to that final build sheet....which would not get stashed in the car anywhere because it was included in the final QC document package.

Build sheets were not "stashed" inside the car, in the sense of being an Easter Egg for future historians to find. They were supposed to be cleaned out along with any other debris, scraps of paper, coffee cups or extra fasteners. Sometimes it was just easier to leave them in place and build the car up around them, but any build sheets that get found are the result of someone at the end of the line not doing their job.

Originally Posted by PurelyGTO68

Maybe the EUN was tracked for quality control reasons?

Yes. That way if there was a specific build issue in the engine plant that could be isolated to a time period then PMD would know which vehicles were affected. In the event of a field action (or product recall - or even vehicles that had not yet left the final assembly location) they would be able to bracket which vehicles to go after.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by PurelyGTO68

This assumes the EUN is sequential.....if not then toss my theory out the window.

If the EUN is sequential.....then I have yet to see an earlier number on a deuce engine. Its kinda fun to explain to anyone who will listen that my car is the 2nd known GTO deuce built with the earliest engine. I know it doesn't mean much....just interesting to talk about.

The EUN is assigned sequentially at the engine plant but not necessarily consumed sequentially at the vehicle assembly plant.

Most plants (including Pontiac) have a "buffer", or accumulator, between the body shop and paint shop, between paint and trim, and between trim and final assembly. This allows builds to be banked and shuffled in order to accommodate work load leveling downstream, to allow for more lengthy repairs, or to keep the final line running in the event of a breakdown.

Cars might be held in a particular row, or even in the aisle, especially if all the parts were not available to complete the build (like an unusual or rare engine combination).

As a result, cars do not necessarily come off the line in pure VIN order.



K

[nmoreilly]

This is interesting

http://www.wallaceracing.com/form.php

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Negative - I've never seen a handwritten EUN -



Also "no". Once the engine is "picked" and hung on the motor line then the EUN is known. The "feeder" lines - like the motor line, front end sheet metal line, tire/wheel assemblies, axles - are all conveyed to the main line in build sequence. So once the engine is hung you are committed (other than something catastrophic happening, or if a vehicle is cut in/cut out of the build).



Build sheets were not "stashed" inside the car, in the sense of being an Easter Egg for future historians to find. They were supposed to be cleaned out along with any other debris, scraps of paper, coffee cups or extra fasteners. Sometimes it was just easier to leave them in place and build the car up around them, but any build sheets that get found are the result of someone at the end of the line not doing their job.



Yes. That way if there was a specific build issue in the engine plant that could be isolated to a time period then PMD would know which vehicles were affected. In the event of a field action (or product recall - or even vehicles that had not yet left the final assembly location) they would be able to determine which vehicles to go after.

K

I think we agree on all accounts.
I have never seen a handwritten EUN either. If it ever was handwritten anywhere...we would never see it.

Since the engine is picked after the broadcast sheets are printed....the EUN is not known at time of printing. So the next logical question is why have the box on the forms at all? Any why it it so large? Much larger than what is required for a 6 or 7 digit number. Same question for the other boxes on that form. None of that info was known at the time of printing. Seems like the only practical reason to record that info is for quality control reasons.

Agree on the stashing comment. They were supposed to end up in a bin but that didnt always happen.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

The EUN is assigned sequentially at the engine plant but not necessarily consumed sequentially at the vehicle assembly plant.

Most plants (including Pontiac) have a "buffer", or accumulator, between the body shop and paint shop, between paint and trim, and between trim and final assembly. This allows builds to be banked and shuffled in order to accommodate work load leveling downstream, to allow for more lengthy repairs, or to keep the final line running in the event of a breakdown.

Cars might be held in a particular row, or in the aisle, especially if all the parts were not available to complete the build (like an unusual or rare engine combination).

As a result, cars do not necessarily come off the line in pure VIN order.



K

Agree. Cars don't always roll out in VIN order. Just never have been able to confirm the EUN is a sequential number. I know its assigned at the engine plant but have no further information.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Brewster]

Found this inside the rear seat and not sure what it is or from where? Original to the car but ???

[PurelyGTO68]

Originally Posted by Brewster

Found this inside the rear seat and not sure what it is or from where? Original to the car but ???

Interesting. Haven't seen something like that before. I wonder if that could be the Uniform Option Identification Tag (UOIT)? According to CRG, the UOIT was used by the trim shop and would contain information related to car color, trim and options. Is that the sort of info you see on that tag?

The CRG is Camaro Research Group so information is focused on F body models but some things apply to other body types since many of the processes were the same or similar. The CRG is looking for a copy of an UOIT tag so they may be interested to see what you found.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[muscle_collector]

thank you keith for all the insider info.

[Brewster]

I have no resources to i.d. codes thus lost. Any help is appreciated.