[unruhjonny]

It occurred to me how it seems odd that Chevrolet's get some much limelight and are valued so high, when in fact they can often pale in comparison to the competition - even when it's friendly competition like Pontiacs.

For the last several weeks I have been perusing threads on nastyZ28 (mostly because of shared drivetrain components), and my mind has been wandering a bit;
In the Chevrolet/Camaro-world, 1970 is the undisputed 'big dog' as far as horsepower goes for the whole run of the second gen Camaro;
But over here in Pontiac/Firebird-world, 1970 is just one high water mark - most (probably for good reason) will cite 1973/1974 SD455 cars as being the 'big dog' - but where does that leave the 455HO's, the Ram Air IV's, the other 'Ram Air' powered cars, or the not-even-Ram-Air cars?!?

I have heard several first hand stories of cars from before my days, but not having lived through the musclecar heydays I only have stories to go on.
I have heard many stories about vaunted Chevrolet "big block" cars being taken down by otherwise seemingly "pedestrian" Pontiac's.
An example of such stories I have read are from the likes of 'Ponyakr';

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=685622
(the following is slightly edited to make it easier to read, and taken from multiple posts)

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I ran d stock & won my class almost every week - they gave a trophy for class win & a bigger one for overall win. I soon had a room full of trophies and we ended up having so many trophies that we talked the track owners into giving us $5 instead of a trophy.
...
I must give credit where the credit is due;
Through all these wins (which was almost every race that 1st 2 years) ... I cannot take any of the credit - all I did was pop the clutch & row thru the gears. The ole goat did the work and it wasn't because I hopped it up with cheater parts - I assure you it was stone stock, just as delivered from the factory.
I had driven the GTO about 61,000 miles when I took it off the street to race and at that time the only work ever done on it was a new timing set.
...
When I would get ready to race, I installed a new clutch & pressure plate and raced the motor stone stock & unmolested all of '73 & '74.
I guess that's one reason they were so popular back then, they were bad to the bone right from the factory.
...
I could have gotten 4.33 gears in my goat, but I knew it would be a daily driver, so I compromised with a 3.90.
...

(thanks to ponyakr for sharing his stories and pictures - if you haven't read his thread, it's an interesting glimpse into time bygone - the link to his thread is right above his words.)

Back to the Camaro thing, the highest horsepower 1970 Chevrolet engines were:
L48 @ 300hp/380tq (SS; base)
LT1 @ 360hp/380tq (Z28)
L34 @ 350hp/415tq ('base' SS396 motor)
L78 @ 375hp/415tq (optional SS396 motor)
LS6 @ 450hp/500tq (Chevelle only)

It seems to me that Chevrolet was breaking GM's hp to weight ratio numbers with every one of those engines (except for the 'base' SS 350) when applied to the Camaro - iirc the Firebird was rated as being 3,450lbs, ergo the max hp motor that could be used in a Firebird was 345hp - I would think the Camaro should have had about the same, or a lower number based on the wieght of a Chevrolet small block vs a Pontiac V8.... but I digress this is a small tangent.

While the highest horsepower 1970 Pontiac engines were:
L78 @ 350hp/445tq (base in GTO & Formula Firebird; Firebird rated @ 330hp)
L74 @ 366hp/445tq (aka: RAIII; Firebird rated @ 345hp)
L67 @ 370hp/445tq (aka: RAIV; no Firebird rating, not an official option)
L75 @ 370hp/500tq (aka: "d-port 455HO"; GTO only)

It really seems to me that even though Chevrolet gets all the glory these days, it's really slanted - because as Ponyakr points out in his great thread, Pontiac really did a great job... and even though they may not have had the all out highest hp engines for really any given model year, their bread and butter stuff seems (to me at least) to be heads and shoulders above the competitions comparable models - let's compare the 'base' drivetrains for the Camaro SS & Firebird Formula in 1970 as an example:

Camaro SS
pro: 4 speed is base with no charge to swap between M20, M21 or M22
con: down 30hp (actually 50hp) compared to Formula

Firebird Formula
pro: up 30hp (actually 50hp) compared to Camaro SS
con: if you want a four speed, you have to pay for it.

Now let's compare the drivetrains for the top model Camaro (Z28) & Firebird (Trans Am) in 1970:

Camaro Z28
pro: more subdue package than Trans Am; 3.73:1 standard gearing & 4.10:1 optional gearing; M22 available
con: down 6hp and 30ft/lbs when you use the real GTO hp numbers; posi is an option; more gearing means less highway friendly.

Firebird Trans Am
pro: has an additional 6hp and 30ft/lbs when you use the real GTO hp numbers; posi is included with the package; less gearing means more highway friendly.
con: I have come to understand that for it's time, it was a little too flashy for many; 3.55:1 gearing standard and the only optional 'performance' gearing was the 'standard' set used on the Z28; no M22 available.

Another interesting note when comparing 1970 Camaro with 1970 Firebird performance models is that only 2,464 1970 Camaro SS's were built with either big block (because the SS's optional L34 on paper looks comparable to the base Formula engine) - while there were 7,708 Formulas and another 3,196 Trans Ams - putting the ratio of 400cid+/350+hp Firebirds vs Camaro's for 1970 at more than 4:1;
It's only when you add '70 Z28's to those numbers that 350+hp Camaros get to a virtually 1:1 ratio against the Firebirds...

Now I'm not trying to knock Chevrolets, or say that they in any way are not worth enjoying, but I guess I just don't seem to understand how a good chunk of their value is about the badge - rather than the hard performance numbers.

This is from a recently read article called "Interesting Chevy Muscle Car Facts";

Car Life magazine was less than impressed when its 1970 LS6 Chevelle ran 14.57 at 99.77 for a September 1970 road test.

This e/t put's the "fastest" production Chevrolet car squarely in the sights of a 'base' 1970 GTO....

Just sharing my thoughts and ponderings...
feel free to share your thoughts or insights...

... and incase I don't have opportunity in the next week;
Merry Christmas & happy new year!

[mgarblik]

Like most people on here my age, street racing is where we cut our teeth. One of my best friends in HS had a stock 70 1/2 Z28, and I had a stock 70 1/2 Trans AM Ram Air III. The Z28 was an automatic, (first year offered ), and my car was a Muncie 4-speed. Every day when leaving HS, we would drag race right next to the school. We probably ran each other 30-40 times. The races were always very close. Whoever got the jump and managed to hook up those lousy Polyglass tires would win the race. My Trans AM would tend to get out of the hole by maybe 1/2 a car length when I could hook it up but the much higher reving solid lifter SBC had incredible mid-range and high RPM power and would come back on me slightly and sometimes sneak past me until 80 MPH or so. From 80-100 MPH, the Trans AM in 4th gear and back in the torque peak would again ever so slowly pull away again. They were very evenly matched and a ball to race. I do remember distinctly the Z28 shifting full throttle in drive right at 6800 RPM's and kicking hard to the side as it broke the tires loose in 2nd and 3rd gear. I also remember the Z28 being really finicky, always requiring carburetor adjustments, valve adjustments and constant attention to run it's best. The Pontiac required gasoline, and no attention at all. No different than a Bonneville.

[Half-Inch Stud]

480 HO 390 HP Grand Prix was decent too.

Thread story Reminds me of a latenight street challenge with a 427 67 Chevelle 1/4 mile car where 3 stop/go lights in a row showed the 68 428 Pontiac easily pulling ahead. A week later the Chevelle owner denied every bit of it. And thatsa how it goes.

Ssems to me the SB Chevy shares fame with the 9" Ford rear; when made to run, there barely a stock part left.

The Pontiac made to run is tuning, tuning, some porting, and some tuning.

These days i'm wondering why a simple part throttle "acceleration" while in OD takes 65 mph to 100 mph like a couple seconds. Pondering if there is a 1/4 mile track strategy other than " wind-out and shift". Think about that; 1st gear to 60-foot and shift to OD.....naw.

[muscle_collector]

it doesn't matter what kind of high horse car you had. some ran like crazy some were total dogs. you had some plain 350hp gto's that would smoke a ra3 and ra4 cars. fine tuning was most of it. I had a friend that had a 70 z28 and we would race all the time against my Pontiacs. if I got the jump on him (which I usually did) I would usually win by a car length or a good basically tie. but I took some lickings when I couldn't get traction because those lt1 engines literally scream on the big end. many a big block car spanked by a good running lt1

[geeteeohguy]

Chevrolets get all the attention because they made so many of them, and more people have memories of them. They were also cheaper than other GM divisions, and the aftermarket support for hop-up parts was (and is) more plentiful than for the other GM divisions. For very little money, it was (and is) very easy to build up a screaming SBC or BBC. That said, comparable Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, and Buicks were much higher quality cars with much nicer interiors and appointments. And many were better performers out of the gate than Chevrolets.....there were just far fewer of them on the streets. Even today, the cost difference of building a 500 HP Pontiac or Buick compared to building a 500 HP Chevrolet is huge.

[mgarblik]

At the college I work at we do it every year. Start with a junk yard 350 from a GM truck. Buy the correct parts and $800.00 dollars later, you have a 350 HP SBC. For $1500.00, you have one that makes 450 HP. It is literally that cheap and easy. All the engines are verified on a Superflow SF901 dyno with 902 software update. Other engines will make lots more power, but not for under a grand.

[mlewisariz]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Chevrolets get all the attention because they made so many of them, and more people have memories of them. They were also cheaper than other GM divisions, and the aftermarket support for hop-up parts was (and is) more plentiful than for the other GM divisions. For very little money, it was (and is) very easy to build up a screaming SBC or BBC. That said, comparable Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, and Buicks were much higher quality cars with much nicer interiors and appointments. And many were better performers out of the gate than Chevrolets.....there were just far fewer of them on the streets. Even today, the cost difference of building a 500 HP Pontiac or Buick compared to building a 500 HP Chevrolet is huge.

If you can't afford the best,....stick with Chevrolet.

[Half-Inch Stud]

428 came out as 480 ( confounded autocorrect won't turn off )

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

At the college I work at we do it every year. Start with a junk yard 350 from a GM truck. Buy the correct parts and $800.00 dollars later, you have a 350 HP SBC. For $1500.00, you have one that makes 450 HP. It is literally that cheap and easy. All the engines are verified on a Superflow SF901 dyno with 902 software update. Other engines will make lots more power, but not for under a grand.

Uhm, start with a 400 Pontiac and it delivers 350 HP. Add electric fuel pump & tune it for more (oh, back in the day...and today)

[Goatracer1]

I grew up right in the best era for cheap muscle cars. Year was 1969 or 1970 and I had a 1965 GTO with a 428 from a 1969 GP. The 428 had RA3 cam and 850 Holley other wise stock. One of the other guys had a Hemi Roadrunner. The easiest way to beat him was lead him around town for 10-15 minutes at low speed then race. I never had a problem with the GTO loading up but not so the Hemi. Sometimes it's not how much HP you make. Back then with no electronic ignition or fuel injection a lot of the high po engines just didnt run well on the street.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

Just sharing my thoughts and ponderings...
feel free to share your thoughts or insights...

The much loved Chevies would've been nothing but smallblocks if Pontiac wasn't leading the way. Think about it. Not only were the SS396 Chevelles late to the party, but the big block Camaros were as well. Even though the 67 'bird was introduced later, it had the 400 from the very start. And let's not forget the 1975 and 1976 Z28s, you know, the ones they didn't make. Pontiac knew better.

[Radman]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Chevrolets get all the attention because they made so many of them, and more people have memories of them. They were also cheaper than other GM divisions, and the aftermarket support for hop-up parts was (and is) more plentiful than for the other GM divisions. For very little money, it was (and is) very easy to build up a screaming SBC or BBC. That said, comparable Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, and Buicks were much higher quality cars with much nicer interiors and appointments. And many were better performers out of the gate than Chevrolets.....there were just far fewer of them on the streets. Even today, the cost difference of building a 500 HP Pontiac or Buick compared to building a 500 HP Chevrolet is huge.

You can easily build two Chevy's for the price of one Pontiac.

[72projectbird]

I love Pontiacs and Chevys!

I find it amusing that people can have such a strong dislike for another brand, when to me they're all great. Competition breeds innovation, and with that comes some great automobiles.

The Camaros have their pros and cons, just like T/As. There are certain cars from both brands that I would take over the other, but I love them all.

Same goes for Mopar and Ford products.

[bird72]

A friend had a 70 Z, LT1 / 4 speed back in the day and I got to drive it. Had some carb, ignition tweaks and headers. Factory build block still. That car totally astounded me driving. That thing would rev with big power.

[GRX]

Great subject. Almost wish cell phone videos were as ubiquitous back then as now. Almost.

Back in the day one of the baddest street racer cars around here was my neighbor's 390 powered AMC javelin. Remember him spanking a lot of cars with it. Including some BBC cars and Pontiacs.

As said above, a large part of it was tuning. Another big one is production inconsistencies. How much casting shift? How closely did quality control monitor the machines? When blueprinting you can see how many variances there are. Of the muscle car era engines I have worked with Mopars were the worst offenders. Valve spring seat depths all over the place. Conn rods several grams off from each other. Indexing and stroke specs on some of the cranks was atrocious. Essentially had to 'unlock' the machine and align it with what was already there because fixing would take it far below bearing under-sizes. This is why you could have one Mopar that ran like a scalded dog, and another like a sick puppy. Same deal goes for other brands as well. Our Pontiacs included. Just not bad as others.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Uhm, start with a 400 Pontiac and it delivers 350 HP. Add electric fuel pump & tune it for more (oh, back in the day...and today)

Yes, I understand where your coming from and don't disagree. I guess my example could be restated this way. The junkyard SBC truck engine would start about 200 HP. You can gain 150 HP on one for $800.00 in parts. The Pontiac V-8 in you example to go from 350 HP stock and gain 150 HP to end up at 500 HP would cost much more than $800.00 in parts to accomplish. Of course you end up with 500 Pontiac HP vs 350 SBC HP. But when you add in initial buy-in cost, things really get out of hand. These students can go to the local Pull and Pay junkyards and get these 350's all day long for under $200.00. If the yard pulls them, they may be $300.00 for a complete engine. An old 400 high compression Pontiac engine in usable core condition will be at least $1000.00. One from a GTO or Grand Prix probably $1500.00 plus. As much as I love Pontiac V-8's, they are getting harder to find and costing more.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by GRX

Great subject. Almost wish cell phone videos were as ubiquitous back then as now. Almost.

Back in the day one of the baddest street racer cars around here was my neighbor's 390 powered AMC javelin. Remember him spanking a lot of cars with it. Including some BBC cars and Pontiacs.

As said above, a large part of it was tuning. Another big one is production inconsistencies. How much casting shift? How closely did quality control monitor the machines? When blueprinting you can see how many variances there are. Of the muscle car era engines I have worked with Mopars were the worst offenders. Valve spring seat depths all over the place. Conn rods several grams off from each other. Indexing and stroke specs on some of the cranks was atrocious. Essentially had to 'unlock' the machine and align it with what was already there because fixing would take it far below bearing under-sizes. This is why you could have one Mopar that ran like a scalded dog, and another like a sick puppy. Same deal goes for other brands as well. Our Pontiacs included. Just not bad as others.

My experience backs this up to a T. My mother had a 390 4-speed Javelin when I was growing up. It was a fast car and she used to easily beat SBC Camaro's and Mustangs all the time on the street. I even remember her tangling with a 396 Chevelle and skidding through a red light because she wanted to make sure he knew she had taken him down. Good times.
My friends who bought hemi Mopars either new or used, drove them right home and took the engines completely apart and checked everything before putting them into street race duty. That's why they were successful. The hemi engines were complete and total garbage as far as assembly quality from the factory. They found rod bolts loose, rocker shaft spacers missing, you name it. One friend of mine took delivery of a hemi Road Runner and it was missing one head gasket. Quality control was just an abstract thought in Mopar land in the 1960's. Still love the cars.

[Jack Ferris]

I race both Pontiac (69 GTO S/G) and Chevrolet
(88 Camaro Bracket car) and love them both. Two totally different mules but equally fun to go fast in. I’m not partial to different brands but I don’t mix motors and bodies.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

I love Pontiacs and Chevys!

I find it amusing that people can have such a strong dislike for another brand, when to me they're all great. Competition breeds innovation, and with that comes some great automobiles.

The Camaros have their pros and cons, just like T/As. There are certain cars from both brands that I would take over the other, but I love them all.

Same goes for Mopar and Ford products.

Ditto

Very rare to find people like this. We've always been a family of all brands. Dad bought his 69 GTO new and still owns it, but that doesn't mean he hates everything else. At that time he was also trying to buy a 69 SS L78 chevelle but they wouldn't deal on the sticker, so he went back to the Pontiac dealer and the rest is history. He owned a 57 chevy convertible before that, and a 56 chevy sedan before that. So we've owned and still own various Chevrolets, Fords, and Pontiacs over the years.
Funny today how I can take different brand cars to local cruises and the same guys that wanted to be my buddy last week now won't give me the time of day because I'm in a Chevrolet this week. That's pretty much how I depict a true car guy from the rest. The one track mind guys don't grasp it. Boring and sad at the same time. It's one of the reasons I don't do car clubs these days. We just simply enjoy all of them. They all have their own good points and bad but in the end it doesn't really matter. They are all fun to drive.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

This is from a recently read article called "Interesting Chevy Muscle Car Facts";

This e/t put's the "fastest" production Chevrolet car squarely in the sights of a 'base' 1970 GTO....

Just sharing my thoughts and ponderings...
feel free to share your thoughts or insights...

... and incase I don't have opportunity in the next week;
Merry Christmas & happy new year!

When comparing things like ET between models things start to get very misguided. The way a car was optioned will have a huge affect on performance, plus these cars tested didn't always have a hot shoe behind the wheel either, or favorable track conditions.
There are several road tests of LS6 Chevelles from back in the day. One went 13.12, and I have a copy of one here with a 4 speed and 4.10's that went 13.44 at 108 mph. That particular test got rave reviews from everyone that drove it. There is another one with 3.31 gears that still ran in the 13's.
I have one road test here of a 70 Buick GS 455 where they were drag racing the car with 4 people in the car. Why would you do that? It certainly hurt the performance. So I don't put a lot of weight on the performance figures from back then, they were all over the place. I like to look at a car for it's performance potential. What's hiding underneath. Because none of these cars stayed bone stock for very long. Some packages were certainly more advantageous than others. You know as well as I do that you can look at the PS drags and it's history and figure that out pretty quickly.