[poncho-mike]

I have a "What's it worth" question. I have a friend who is in his later 60s and owns a 69 Ram IV GTO 4-spd hardtop. He has owned this car for probably 25+ years, and it has been garage kept the entire time he's owned it.

The good: It is a real low option Ram IV 4-spd car. It doesn't have the original motor, but it has a date coded WW that matches perfectly.

The bad: It was originally Mayfair Maize with black interior. It was repainted red.

The worst: It was flooded in the mid-90s.

The story: My friend picked up a very solid 69 GTO in the late 80s or early 90s. At the time, it had a 68 GTO 400 WT engine mated to a big input/ouput shaft Muncie, back up by a 3.55 limited slip. The car had part of the ram air system installed, and at some point he ran the PHS to see how it was origianlly equipped. The sheet came back from PHS showing it was a real Ram IV car. Back in the mid-80s, I picked up an original WW Ram IV engine out of a 69 Judge, and the two cars were built about five days apart. I ended up selling him the engine and helping him install it.

Around 1996, a major hurricane flooded much of eastern NC. His house backs up to a small creek that flooded. The car was stored in a very nice garage, and was submerged for about a day or two. When the flood waters receded, I helped him save the car. We yanked the engine and trans right away, and stripped the interior out of the car. We flushed fresh water through all of the body cavities, then took it to a Chevy dealership where it was put under heat lamps. Luckily the flood waters were fresh water. We tore the engine apart and got it greased up to prevent it from rusting.

My friend argued with the insurance company for a few years over the value of the car. When it was apparent that he wasn't going to get the GTO back on the road quickly, he bought a really nice 67 GTO convertible.

Once he settled with insurance, he decided to have a frame on cosmetic restoration done. He arranged for the body to be blasted with media (not sand), then took it to a body shop for new paint. The body on this car was beautiful, the only rust in the quarters was one spot about the size of a quarter. It had some minor repair work done to one door and the bottom of one fender was rusty, so he bought original GM replacement parts. He got a hood from me, and he bought doors from Arizona. He had the engine rebuilt, and I helped him install it and run it in. The tranny and rear end were flushed and new fluid installed, and he replaced all of the brake system.

His life got very busy with his business, then grand-kids came along. The GTO sat in the garage. I believe he cranks it and lets it run, but it hasn't been back on the road since the flood. He bought a ton of new parts from Ames and Performance Years. The body is all together, right now the interior needs to be completed. He installed a new dash, and had a problem with getting some of the gauges to work.

My friend is talking about selling the car, and asked my opinion on what it's worth. I'm not interested, I have too many cars cars already. It's pretty easy to figure out what a Ram IV car is worth, but with the title branded as a flood car, I'm not sure how to put a value on it.

Any thoughts here? BTW, the water on the floor is from washing the car.

[poncho-mike]

C'mon, somebody has to have an opinion. The next step is Ebay.

[MD79TA]

that is not easy to value. I would think it needs a complete body off nuts and bolts restoration at that point title with flood designation still play a big role I would think ( how much???) is anyone's guess.on . Put it in auction with a safe reserve and see what it does. Doug

[brians]

First is the title clean just branded or is it salvage title that still has to go thru state inspection?
State inspection requirements tend to scare people.


To me, the title would not mean much if it is just branded. Most of these cars went through something at one time. Be it accident, theft, rust, cut up for the dragstrip ect. What is the difference if it is a restored ex tubbed race car or restored ex flood car. Now say it was a theft/recovery with a state issue vin – that would affect value.

What would be a value issue for me is it is a flood car that is not finished. From a complete outsider point of view - if it has not had any miles since then and not road drivable at the present, I would still look at it as if I’d have to take everything apart to recheck it.

[Judge273]

Those pix don't help value a car...lots of wrong just in what I opened.

Value in a nom RAIV m-21 car are RA stuff, carb, dist, heads, Trans, rear...

Color not good, and it will have to be priced well to sell.

[The Boss]

Problem here Mike is for most of the guys buying a car like that, they'll be starting at square one again. If the car wasn't restored to concourse specs and isn't a driver on it's own, it will likely get pulled apart again to be repainted the original color and restored correctly.

Add that to the fact that there are already at least 2 award winning RA IV 4spds (non Judges) out there that can't cover their costs and what do you have? The RA II GTO's are proven 6 figure cars done, the RA IV non Judges are barely that.

[MD79TA]

And price are at best stable if not dropping exception being concourse /or original unmolested ram air 4/judge . And even these are under pressure down. IMO Doug

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Judge273

Those pix don't help value a car...lots of wrong just in what I opened.

Value in a nom RAIV m-21 car are RA stuff, carb, dist, heads, Trans, rear...

Color not good, and it will have to be priced well to sell.

I agree with this. From the description even the rearend doesn't match. Car will have to be taken back down and redone correctly (color etc..) if a big selling number is expected. As is, I agree, it will have to be priced very well to sell. With everything against it (title, non numbers, not finished, wrong color etc..) you know buyers are just going to beat the seller up on it.

Never know what ebay will do. Could always put it on there as a "feeler" with high reserve and see what happens.

[67gtojones]

Have you thought about approaching a classic dealer who also restores cars. They would most likely have the experience and knowledge to finish it. That might be the quickest. But, a private sale on eBay might also be pretty quick. I would get this out there sooner than later because now is a popular time where people are looking at projects (Spring and Summer).

[poncho-mike]

Just want to make sure everybody knows that this is not my car. He's not into it as heavy into the hobby as most of the guys on this board are, and he's asking me for my input.

He said he doesn't remember the insurance company asking for his title, but the insurance company probably went directly to DMV and branded it. NC doesn't mess around with flood cars, so I expect it will have a tainted title. Even if it doesn't, he said for legal reasons he would disclose that is was a flood car.

It has the correct 273 carb. I'm not sure if the rear end is original or not. The rear end is a nodular case 3.55 limited slip, but I wasn't able to find the axle code. The cast date on the rear end housing matches up with the car build date, so it could be the original case with a gear change.

I still haven't heard a number to start with? BTW, any estimates on what a complete Ram IV WW engine with correct heads, intake, carb, and repop exhaust manifolds?

Mike

[Formulajones]

Hard to nail down a number Mike. People will be all over the map. For someone like myself, I'd be looking at blowing that car completely apart for a restoration, so that figures into what I'd want to pay. There is a ton of work there. Just not worth a lot to me in it's current state. I'd probably pay more for the engine alone than I would the whole car.

But there are people out there, just have to find the right buyer that likes red and doesn't care about things being correct. Putting it on ebay as a "feeler" is probably the best way to get the car seen and see what the market will bare for something like that. It might surprise him enough to let it go.

[unruhjonny]

I think the suggestion of putting it on eBay as-is, with a nice comfortable reserve might be the way to go - it would be a good way of gauging interest, or value for the car as it sits right now.

I would wager that no one has suggested a value, because there is very little out there to directly compare against - if it were a lesser car, it might be easier to make an educated guess based on what's all there, but given the fact that it's an original RAIV car, it's rather tough to say.

[supercar]

I will put a number on it.... I am a buyer and a seller..... if I was buying, I would pay 20 grand. If I was selling, 25 grand.

[supercar]

The title issue could be a deal killer for a lot of people.

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by supercar

I will put a number on it.... I am a buyer and a seller..... if I was buying, I would pay 20 grand. If I was selling, 25 grand.

You're about 5k more than me. I know it's crazy, but I would pay more if it were an automatic. It would make the perfect car for me to go FAST racing with.

[Formulajones]

I'm thinking you meant Pure Stock or Factory Stock racing?

FAST racing class would be better suited to building a clone because you would be cutting and swiss cheesing things, big stroker motor, etc...

It would be a great PS class car, there are quite a few RAIV 4-speed cars in the class running 12's at 114-115 mph. I don't recall seeing an auto RAIV in the class, but there should be.

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I'm thinking you meant Pure Stock or Factory Stock racing?

FAST racing class would be better suited to building a clone because you would be cutting and swiss cheesing things, big stroker motor, etc...

It would be a great PS class car, there are quite a few RAIV 4-speed cars in the class running 12's at 114-115 mph. I don't recall seeing an auto RAIV in the class, but there should be.

You are correct. I need an automatic because I can't use a clutch with my bad legs and feet.

[Greg Reid]

Wish I could afford it. I'd love to have that car just like it is. Mayfair over Black is one of my favorite colors too. Freshwater is a plus as far as floods go. I might be more concerned with corrosion in the wiring harnesses than rust...and that's not a huge deal for me.
I don't think $20K~$25K is far off.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jerry H.

You are correct. I need an automatic because I can't use a clutch with my bad legs and feet.

Understand. I'd like to see it happen. I think a RA IV auto combination would do very well in the PS class.

[brians]

What happened to the Judge the Ram IV engine came out of?
Reuniting them would be the real money