[64speed]

If everything works out for me around march I will have the money to start the engine project for my 64 tempest. But there's a problem. I'm scared! I have built small block chevys before but I have never built a Pontiac. That is the first obstacle. The second obstacle is I have no core and Pontiac engines around here are scarce. The only one I know I can lay my hands on is a 400 in a rotting away 67 GTO and it hasn't ran in 30 plus years and he still wants 1500 for it. Of course in a perfect world I would build it myself but if I make an expensive mistake I won't have the money to recover. I have read several posts on here about how people wouldn't buy a long distance engine etc. and I have read just as many posts about how wonderful Len Williams and Butler Performance are. So the question is buy or build? What did you do and why? How much is too much to spend for a fun street motor? Many years ago I had a 64 GTO with a YS code 66 389 and it was a blast to drive so I am sure even a mild 461 will have me giddy.

[geeteeohguy]

You are a prime candidate for a Len Williams 455. It's the most economical, easiest way for you to achieve your goal, and you'll be driving that car for a long, long time. Butler is excellent too, and more than twice the $$$. Up to you. In your position, don't source and build one. Out where I am, Pontiac engines are pretty easily available, probably because the cars lasted a long time due to no rust. Easy to find a 400, or even a 389 for under $500

[64speed]

So I been thinking about a 461 with forged internals and MAYBE edelbrock heads. You think Len Williams is the man for that job? I am in SC so I can drive to Tennessee to pick it up depending on where he is.

[tempest1964]

I think ol' Len is in Oklahoma:
http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.com/Home.html
I think Butler is in Tennessee:
https://butlerperformance.com/

[gtofreek]

Just a suggestion, but if you decide to go the Len Williams way, I would make sure the engine you order from him has forged rods, and not just re-sized stock rods. I would also specify thicker walled pushrods instead of stock. These are minor upgrades that won't break the bank. Also, I see nothing on his website about decking the blocks, or align honing them. Only boring, and honing them with a deck plate. These are important machine operations that should be done on any rebuild, IMO. Factory decks are not very flat. The worst decks I have seen were on Pontiac blocks. One deck on a 400 had a .015" slope off in one corner, from half way across the deck to the end. The front half was fairly flat. That would really twist the head bolting it down. A straight edge won't pick up defects like that. You will only see them when you deck it.

I have never heard anything bad about Len Williams, but on the other hand, I have never heard anyone who used him relay their thoughts either. I see him get recommended all the time, but never hear any reviews of his work, good or bad. Would be nice to hear some first hand info from someone who has actually used him.

Anyone have a Len Williams engine in their car they would like to comment on? His prices are good if he builds a good engine. Any reviews would be good for the forums, since his name gets thrown around a lot.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I run "pontiac 400" "pontiac 428" "pontiac 455", plus a few other terms on craigslist search about once or twice a week. I come across many of 557 blocks, but have recently bought a brand new set of new Rare Manifolds for 175, cleaned/magged std/std /std disassembled 69 400 for 100, and a steel shot cleaned 1970 cast iron 4bbl intake for 25. Ugly Used Aluminum intakes pop up all the time, usually overpriced.
You would be surprised how niche Pontiac parts buyers are on craigslist, you can start new parts negotiations easily @ 50 cent on the dollar for new parts and just about anywhere on used.
Buying a core disassembled is worth way more than assembled if you know what problems to look for and have calipers in hand.

In your case I would just buy a complete built unit outright, and look around and maybe(cost and time effective) find a core to trade in @ purchase, they're out there you just need to do the research diligently and don't overpay for an unknown condition core!
If the core charge is not that much, just have the new engine shipped to you.

Now that's a package to wait on the porch for!

[Navy Horn 16]

I'm on my second one.

The first one, I did myself. It was a great experience and I don't regret it. I learned a heck of a lot, but much of what I learned was by mistakes and correcting those mistakes. It was expensive.

The 2nd one, I didn't get my hands dirty at all (other than moving the 1973 block (a 455) from where I got it to the machine shop. I went through Butler for all the internals, and let the professionals build the motor.

The 2nd route is going to yield a much better result, but a lot of that is because of what I learned doing the 1st one. The rest is that I have a lot more $ to throw at this one.

I've worked with Butler extensively, and got to visit them when I was working in Spring Hill. Great folks.

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I have never heard anything bad about Len Williams, but on the other hand, I have never heard anyone who used him relay their thoughts either. I see him get recommended all the time, but never hear any reviews of his work, good or bad. Would be nice to hear some first hand info from someone who has actually used him.

Anyone have a Len Williams engine in their car they would like to comment on? His prices are good if he builds a good engine. Any reviews would be good for the forums, since his name gets thrown around a lot.

Originally Posted by tempest1964

I think ol' Len is in Oklahoma:
http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.com/Home.html
I think Butler is in Tennessee:
https://butlerperformance.com/

All great advice. It would be great if Len William's customers would come forth and give us their opinions of his engines: great, awful or in-between. There are several forums other than this one that members here belong to: GTO, Firebird, Trans AM, etc. Surely somewhere, someone has used Mr. Williams and could comment on the experience.

As for 64speed, I think the most direct thing to do would be to call Mr. Williams at 1-918-352-9711 and talk with him about your engine build needs. That will tell you quick if you like what he has to say or not and his price quotes.

(Also I think Pinionhead is in OK and might know something about Len Williams.)

[ponyakr]

There's a guy on the Firebird Nation forum that has dealt with Len. Seemed to have had a positive experience with him. I'll look around over there and see if I can locate the thread. May take awhile. But I'll post it in this thread when I find it.

[mach flyer]

I've posted this before and I keep seeing people posting about Len Williams, so here I go again.
About 10 yrs ago I took a 67 400 block to Len to get machined and I was going to assemble the engine, I had him bore the cylinders and "zero" deck it along with him ordering me some custom Ross pistons...
Picked up the block and took it home and stored it while I was waiting on the car to come out of the body shop. Went to assemble the engine and found what I thought might be a possible crack, took it to my local machine shop and he looked over the work that had been done while checking the possible crack.... Good news no crack!!!! Bad news deck surface was very rough, too rough to use as is and block was not zero decked....
I won't use Len to machine an engine for me again, but he did get me a great deal on the Ross pistons!!!! I would definitely buy parts from him again.
Andy

[Half-Inch Stud]

Be more scared of the torquey performance. Dropping drveshafts, spinouts when ya sneeze, torn driver mounts, leaky headers, on on on

[tempest1964]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Be more scared of the torquey performance. Dropping drveshafts, spinouts when ya sneeze, torn driver mounts, leaky headers, on on on

Huh? Lost me on that one. Must have had a blonde moment! Lol........

[tom s]

I have said it before and will again.I like engine builders that also have their own machine shop.EVERYONE can make a mistake(hope not)but you dont have to worry about that builder blaming bad machine work on someone else.I do use some builders that dont but whenever possible I do.Also I really dont like not being able to take my engine to and from them and also visit them.I have used cross country builder twice,one was a great experience(he has his own machine shop) and one was not(he did not do his machine work)

[b-man]

Go with Paul Carter at Koerner Racing Engines in AZ.

Here he details one of the nicest 400 engine builds I've ever seen. Paul was kind enough to also include the actual costs for this particular build which are quite frankly very reasonable for the high level of attention to detail paid to both machining and assembling this top-notch 400:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=785341

Dyno testing the same 400 with amazing results:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=795059

Don't let distance be an issue here, you'll get it done right the first time from Paul (he has already chimed in above, PY member gtofreek, he won't toot his own horn here).

How many builders dare to freely share every detail on how they do their engine machining and assembly work here? Nobody else that I've seen.

[tom s]

If I had to do a long distance build it would be Paul or Ric Johnson in Crete IL.Tom

[64speed]

Well you've given me a lot of options. Butler is relatively close and has a wonderful reputation but how much are you paying for hype and how much are you paying for pro assembly. This engine will not be an all out balls to the wall build. I drive my cars. Daily when I can. I want it to be fast but it will never see the track or a set of sticky tires. 450 hp turns me on and 500 ft lbs delights me. If I could reach those numbers on a RELIABLE build I would be willing to pay a little more.

[salesguy01]

Just get this book:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-P.../dp/1613250355

Once you have the machine shop work done it really is just bolt together and torque things down....

It is a really good step by step book.

I built my Butler shortblock kit, even with a flat tappet cam and all is well! my first ever engine assembly. I do love mechanical things and have somewhat decent common sense.

[ponyakr]

While we're talkin about different engine builders, I'd like to hear some good or bad info on Sandoval. He has a really slick lookin website. And his prices look to be slightly lower than the big boys. But I don't recall ever hearing of anybody who bought one of his engines.

http://www.sandovalperformance.com/engines

So, how 'bout it ? Anybody bought from him ?

[tom s]

salesguy,one issue with most first timers is they lack necessary equipment to check and double check the numbers of the machine work that has been done let alone the clearance for the main and rod bearings etc etc.Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you dont.If you look at the effort Paul and im sure many other do its worth the dollars to have it done once.If you look at Sandoval engines they guarantee the labor but the buyer is responsible to get it back to them to check out.There are MANY very good engine builders out there you just have to find them.A couple of my best are not pontiac specific builders.Tom

[mgarblik]

Every post has talked about having your engine built for you. I have to ask this question. You stated you have built at least 1 small block Chevy engine. Did you enjoy the process of building that engine? Did you have extra satisfaction putting it together yourself and being able to say YOU did the work? Did the Chevy run well for you? (as well as a Chevy can anyway). If you answer yes to these questions, there is no reason to be scared of a Pontiac. A Pontiac V-8 in many ways is easier to build than a Chevy, because of superior design and quality. 14 fewer head bolts to deal with, no crappy poor fitting tin foil timing cover to deal with. No stupid rear main cap/thrust cap, mounting pad for the oil pump. Their is nothing difficult or really special about building a Pontiac engine. If the experience of building the engine yourself is not for you, then buy a ready to install unit. If you are close to Butler, that is an advantage. Yes they have the hype. The hype is from building many of the quickest and fastest Pontiac engines ever for drag racing and road racing. They have earned their reputation from decades of treating customers properly and producing results. I imagine they would cost a little more than a no-name shop. There are many very good machine shops that can build a nice engine for you.