[cal30_sniper]

Hello all,

I've searched high and low looking for information on what all it takes to complete the assembly of bare Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, and I can't seem to find the information I need. I purchased a pair of the 72cc NHRA approved heads #60587, and I'm looking for what all it's going to take to get them put together. I'm looking to do it as cost effectively as possible, because eventually the heads will be coming back off and going to one of the major porters to have the combustion chambers enlarged and runners/bowls ported, along with a 1.77" exhaust valve conversion. I'll also be swapping to a hydraulic roller at that time. I have a set of reworked #17 heads with ARP rocker studs, guideplates, and Lunati Springs/Locks/Retainers that I was hoping to remove and reuse on these heads until then.

I found the part # for Edelbrock intake/exhaust valves for these heads (9750 intake / 9752 exhaust), and it states that they are "Ram Air IV +.120" However, I can't seem to find an overall length for them anywhere. I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me the exact dimensions that I need for valves to work with these heads.

For the time being, I would like to run the heads as is on my 350 while I finish the car and save up for a proper large cube build. I will use the Edelbrock valves if I need to, but it seems like there should be a less costly alternative out there from Manley or someone else. I need the overall length before I can order them, as well as the valve cut angle. I'd like to just be able to lightly lap them into the valve job that is already cut into these heads.

According to the Edelbrock spec sheet, those valves should give me a 1.800" installed spring height. I was planning to use a set of Lunati 73949 valve springs, along with the 75743 retainers that I have on the #17 heads. These springs call for a 1.650" installed height. If I want to use those springs, should I order .150" shorter valves than Edelbrock specifies, or use .150" of shims, or use a -.050" retainer with .100" worth of shims, or is there another alternative that I'm missing?

Is there any other parts that I need specific to the Edelbrock aluminum heads? It seems like I might need some kind of spring seat to keep the valve springs from bedding down into the aluminum, but I'm not certain if this is necessary or not. I've messed with a lot of stock Pontiac/Olds/Chevy stuff before, but never a set of aftermarket heads. The only aluminum heads I've ever fooled with were a set of factory corvette 113 heads for a SBC, and newer LS powered stuff. I hope I don't sound like too much of a novice here, but aftermarket heads is a new horizon for me.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[cal30_sniper]

I see on Butler Performance that Ferrea 5000 series valves are listed for 72cc Edelbrock as:

Intake: F5066 2.11x5.213 w/ 30 degree cut
Exhaust: F5064 1.66x5.230 w/ 45 degree cut

If these were a drop in solution for me, I'd be very happy, as they are about 1/2 the price of the Edelbrock part number valves. Oddly enough though, Butler lists the same length valves for the Edelbrock 72cc heads and the RA IV heads. Did I misread the product literature from Edelbrock? Do their heads really require .120" longer valves than a RA IV head, or do they require RA IV length valves that are .120" longer than regular Pontiac valves. The literature is a bit confusing in how it is written.

[Steve C.]

If it helps I can pass on what I was told direct from Edelbrock in 1999 regarding their valve length used at the time on heads they shipped complete.

#6057 head (87cc)- 5.093" intake / 5.110" exhaust
#6059 head (72cc)- 5.213" intake / 5.230" exhaust

That said, we bought bare heads and bought valves from Ferrea.

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[Skip Fix]

So if they are bare you will probably need guideplates, seat cups, springs and retainers and seals. They will need guide honing as they come tight as well as a valve job.

Basically valve length is 72 cc are RAIV length , 87 cc Edelbrock round ports are standard D port/RAIII length.

Using 5000 series Ferrera or even 6000 series valves if a solid roller is ever going to happen not that much difference to do that now.

[cal30_sniper]

Thanks for the help guys, sounds like those Butler Part #s are the valves I'll need.

I'm still going to try and use the ARP Studs & guideplates, and Lunati Springs, Retainers, and locks from the #17 heads, along with positive lock valve seals.

I was hoping that the valve job and guides would be good as they are from Edelbrock. I guess I can always take them down to the machine shop for some work, but that's extra time and money.

Eventually I will be doing a roller, but not until I build the bigger engine out of my 400 core. I'll be having the heads gone through at that point anyways for porting, combustion chamber enlargement, and larger exhaust valves, so I was hoping to get by on the low budget side for now.

My other option is to run the #17 heads as they are, but then I'd be sourcing headers and having to work my exhaust stuff again later on. I already have round port tri-ys. It would also be nice not to have to fool with rigging up something for the early accessory mounts on the #17 heads as well. I think the #17s would probably run slightly better with the smaller intake runners, but it would certainly save me a lot of work later on if I wasn't having to modify the exhaust for round port heads when the new engine goes in.

[gtofreek]

The E-heads have a different valve spacing than Pontiac heads, so the guideplates off your #17 heads probably won't work. E-heads have their own special guideplates.

You can't shim the springs .150" as that will push the spring seat[which you will need] up into the area where the valve seal needs to sit, so it will prevent installing the seals. .060" is about all you can shim them. You should get the proper springs for them.

Also, if the heads were bought as bare castings, the guides will need to be sized[usually can't even push the valves through, but even when you can, I find they need to be opened up a little more as they are usually on the minimum side], and the seats will need to be cut, as they come uncut on bare heads. If you see only one 45° angle on the seat, with only right angles on top and bottom of it, then they have not been cut. There should be several angles if a valve job was done on them.

Also, Pontiac heads have 30° seats on the intake, thus the one Ferrea valve you listed with a 30° seat[F-5066]. That will not work with the E-heads, as they are generally done in 45°. Ferrea makes a 45° RAIV valve for that. If you can post a pic of the valve seats, I can tell you if they have had a valve job done on them or not.

Also, the E-heads moved the valves over a little. This can cause an issue on 350 engines since the bore is so small. One of the valves can rub on the cylinder if you run too much valve lift, and the cylinders are not chamfered enough at the top. I don't remember if it's the 2.11" intake valve that rubs, or the 1.77" exhaust valve, so you need to check that before running them on a 350.

[Steve C.]

I have a set of Edelbrock Guide plates you can have, just pay UPS. Came with my heads but did not use them since I run a shaft system. Contact me at shc70ta@gmail.com


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[cal30_sniper]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

The E-heads have a different valve spacing than Pontiac heads, so the guideplates off your #17 heads probably won't work. E-heads have their own special guideplates.

I remembered reading about the different valve spacing, but hadn't connected the dots that they would require different valve guides. Makes sense though.

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Also, if the heads were bought as bare castings, the guides will need to be sized[usually can't even push the valves through, but even when you can, I find they need to be opened up a little more as they are usually on the minimum side], and the seats will need to be cut, as they come uncut on bare heads. If you see only one 45° angle on the seat, with only right angles on top and bottom of it, then they have not been cut. There should be several angles if a valve job was done on them.

Also, Pontiac heads have 30° seats on the intake, thus the one Ferrea valve you listed with a 30° seat[F-5066]. That will not work with the E-heads, as they are generally done in 45°. Ferrea makes a 45° RAIV valve for that. If you can post a pic of the valve seats, I can tell you if they have had a valve job done on them or not.

I took some closeups of the valve seat area. They definitely have multiple angles cut into both the exhaust and the intake valve. I measured the angles with a protractor and a straightedge off of the deck of the head, and then subtracted out the difference between the angle of the deck and the intake valve stem. I came up with the following angles:

Intake:
1. 90 degree seat face
2. 30 degree angle cut (wide cut in photo)
3. 45 degree angle cut (narrower cut in photo)
4. 60 degree angle cut (wider cut below narrow band in photo)
5. 85ish degree cut into the bowl

Exhaust:
1. 30 degree cut
2. 45 degree cut
3. Smooth Radius into bowl

Photos:

Intake:


Exhaust:


The 45 degree cuts are the narrowest in both seats, which tells me that both seats will require a 45 degree valve as you suggested.

Now here's the kicker... Measuring across the outside edge of the 45 degree angle cut, I come up with a diameter of 2.112" for the intake, and 1.771" for the exhaust. Now, every bit of literature I've come up with says that the exhaust valve should be 1.66" from the factory on these heads, but that does not appear to be the case.

I do have a 3rd of these heads that I bought off eBay a while back, and it has much coarser 45 and 60 degree cuts on both valves, with a dimension of 2.090 and 1.625 across the 45 degree cuts.

I think these two heads have already had a valve job, and they were taken out to 2.11/1.77 sized valves when they did it.

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Also, the E-heads moved the valves over a little. This can cause an issue on 350 engines since the bore is so small. One of the valves can rub on the cylinder if you run too much valve lift, and the cylinders are not chamfered enough at the top. I don't remember if it's the 2.11" intake valve that rubs, or the 1.77" exhaust valve, so you need to check that before running them on a 350.

And here's where I think I might be screwed. I've seen multiple sources that say you can run the 2.11/1.66 valves with the factory 350 chamfered blocks, and even 2.11/1.77 heads on a factory D-port spacing on a 350 chamfered block, but everyone seems to be in agreement that you can't run a 2.11/1.77 Edelbrock head without the exhaust valve hitting the block. Setting my calipers at 3.975" and laying them across the chamber on these heads, I can see why. The 1.66 valve spacing will fit inside it, but the 1.77 spacing clearly overhangs. Based on a rough measurement, it looks like the exhaust valve has ~0.300" of space inside the chamber to move down before it would contact the cylinder bore beneath. That's obviously not going to work.

I have several options as I see it now:

1. Throw a 4bbl manifold and the original exhaust manifolds back on my 350, put it back in for now to get the car moving under its own power, and finish the body work while I save for a 461 build/get to a duty station that I'll be at long enough to put one in. (Time being the major factor here. I'm only here through the summer, and I won't be at my next station more than a year or so)

2. Swap on the #17 heads along with some used D-port headers and a mild cam swap. Finish the body work, drive and enjoy, while saving for a new motor and waiting for time to put one in. (I see this as the best solution, but it is some money down the drain now that I won't get back later, and still takes some extra time)

3. Build a 400 as is out of the 481988 core that I have, with a simple overbore, and new rods and pistons. Go with these heads, a stout cam, and the roundport headers that I have. Enjoy for a long time, but take the 461 build off the table for the foreseeable future. (I like this idea, but don't think I have the time to do it right myself, or a machine shop that I trust to do it for me here).

I'm not certain what I want to do right now. I think I'm going to go do some bodywork and think about it. I've been pretty hyped up getting ready for a 4-plane formation solo flight tomorrow. Once that's done, maybe I'll see the situation with more clarity.

[gtofreek]

Yep, definitely cut for 1.77 valves. Otherwise, there would be very little angle area under the seat angle with the 1.66" valve. That valve job should work pretty good. That sucks you can't use these heads. A nicely planned 400 will run very strong though, and might temporarily quench your thirst for speed. Although nothing would compare to a solo flight through the clouds to clear your head!