[tarheeltempest]

A few months back, there was some discussion over radiator codes, in my case, the "TT" code for my 65 barn find survivor. I wondered what the GM part number was and found this chart while digging through the remnants of a 65 Master Parts Catalogue. Hope this is of some benefit to others.

[tarheeltempest]

I have a clear as day PDF file but don't know how to save it in my I phone to post. I apologize for the blurriness.

[tarheeltempest]

Try this one:

[John V.]

Be aware that Service Parts p/ns are not necessarily same p/ns as used in production. The p/n assigned to a Code TT production Rad was likely NOT the same p/n as indicated for service of a TT Rad in the Chart. This was most definitely true in '64, the production Rads were identified by different p/ns than the p/ns assigned to the Service Rads.

The MPC Chart is consistent with the 1965 Service Craftsman News No. 1, Jan.-Feb. 1965 edition except for one very glaring error.

This SCN announced some revisions to the Radiator usage as compared to the Rads indicated in the '65 Tempest Chassis Shop Manual (big Pontiacs also had some revisions too).

One of the revised Tempest applications was the Tri-Carb GTO, All Transmissions.

I do not have the Shop Manual but I suspect the revision was to delete a specific Manual Trans Radiator Code for this application.

I am more familiar with the Rad Codes for '64 but I assume the general usage remained the same for '65, at least as proposed/planned and published in the Chassis Shop Manual.

That is, there were specific '65 Radiators planned for Man Trans applications in production. The Man Trans Rads did NOT include the Trans Oil Cooler.

For Auto Trans applications, the same basic Rad was specified but it DID include a Trans Oil Cooler.

In '64, the specific Man Trans Rads for the GTO do not appear to have been released until about mid-year for both the 2" and 2-5/8" thick core rads.

Once released, some Man Trans GTOs got the Rads without Oil Cooler, others continued to get the Auto Trans Rads with Oil Cooler, the connections for the Oil Cooler lines simply had plugs in them.

For Service, only the Auto Trans Rads were serviced, always included the Oil Cooler.

It looks like for '65 GTOs, there were 2 separate Rads for the 4 bbl application, TN (Man Trans) & TR (Auto Trans).

For Tri-Carb, only one Rad used in production for all trans, the Code TT.

For service, the TR & TT are shown in the MPC Chart as being serviced by the same 3005254 service Rad.

This is WRONG! In '64, the 4 bbl 389 Auto Trans standard Rad was 2".

In '65, the Tri-Carb Rad was 2-5/8".

But the '65 GTO with 4 bbl & Auto Trans continued to get a 2" Rad.

The MPC Chart is WRONG, it shows the TR getting the same Service Rad as the TT. The SCN correctly indicates that the TN & TR Rads are BOTH serviced by the same 3005156 Rad. The production TN Rad would have been 2" WITHOUT Oil Cooler, but the Service Rad p/n 3005156 would have been 2" WITH Oil Cooler.

And the correct Service Rad for the TR should actually show 3005156 as is confirmed by the SCN listing, NOT the 3005254 as listed in the MPC Chart.

Does the '65 Tempest Shop Manual show a different code for the Man Trans Tri-Carb application, something other than TT?

If so, had such a 2-5/8" thick Rad without Oil Cooler actually been used in production (as was the case for some '64 GTOs), it would have been serviced by the same p/n 3005254 as was specified to service the TT Rad. Undoubtedly the 3005254 would have been 2-5/8" WITH Oil Cooler, as it would have serviced the Auto Trans and Man Trans Tri-Carb applications.

I believe Keith S.'s original 2-5/8" thick Rad for his very, very early Man Trans Tri-Carb GTO was a Code TT Rad.

If I'm correct, his TT Rad will have an Oil Cooler, with plugs in it. And if so, suggests to me that if a 2-5/8" Rad without Oil Cooler was planned, it was NOT used in production. That would explain the revision published in the SCN.

And if I'm also correct about the 4 bbl Auto Trans TR Rad, it would have been a 2" Rad and would NOT have been serviced by the same Rad as the TT, despite what the MPC Chart indicates.

Since the SCN confirms my opinion on this, I'm confident I'm correct about the TR Rad.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

I believe Keith S.'s original 2-5/8" thick Rad for his very, very early Man Trans Tri-Carb GTO was a Code TT Rad.

If I'm correct, his TT Rad will have an Oil Cooler, with plugs in it.

You are correct. Production part number is 3003154, which uses plugs at the bottom for manual trans.

K

[John V.]

Keith, I was hoping you were following this thread.

Do you have the '65 Tempest Shop Manual?

If so, check Figure 6A-40 and let me know what Rad Code is listed for the Tri-Carb & Man Trans application.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith, I was hoping you were following this thread.

Do you have the '65 Tempest Shop Manual?

If so, check Figure 6A-40 and let me know what Rad Code is listed for the Tri-Carb & Man Trans application.

Yes - a very "well loved" shop manual...





Chart is formatted a bit differently. I'd say it's calling for a "TN" for standard usage and a "TT" for HD usage and trailering.

K

[John V.]

That is different than I expected!

In '64, the Tri-Carb GTOs began the year by getting a 2-5/8" thick Rad as standard.

The '64 Tri-Carb GTOs also began the year getting the 3.55 axle as standard.

In January, the '64 Tri-Carb GTO changed to a 3.23 axle as standard.

Not immediately, but a couple months later, the '64 Tri-Carb GTO began to get the 2" thick Rad as standard, same Rad that was always standard for the 4 bbl GTOs.

At that point, if you special ordered the 3.55 axle, you got the 2-5/8" thick Rad at extra cost. Also true if you special ordered the 3.90 axle. And also true if you ordered A/C. Same Rad codes specified whether the 2-5/8" thick Rad was because of the axle or because of A/C.

There were only (2) versions of the 2-5/8" thick Rad in '64, the one with oil cooler (Code 50) used on many man trans GTOs and the late released one without oil cooler (Code 59) used on some late man trans GTOs.

I assume in '65, the A/C cars continued to get a 2-5/8" thick Rad.

What I cannot understand is why they got unique Rad codes.

Any idea how the '65 A/C Rads, (TV & TX) differed from the TT?

Looks like they planned to carry over the '64 idea to use a 2" thick Rad for both the 4 bbl and Tri-Carb GTOs per the Shop Manual (TN or TR listed for both 4 bbl & Tri-Carb GTOs).

But I believe they decided to revert back to making the 3.55 axle standard for the Tri-Carb GTOs from the beginning of '65.

So I bet that is why they also reverted back to specifying a 2-5/8" thick Rad for the Tri-Carb and that Rad was the TT, as confirmed by the revision noted in the SCN.

Surprisingly (to me anyway), it does NOT look like they decided to release an equivalent Rad but without Oil Cooler for the TT. The TT was specified as the HD Rad for man trans & auto trans applications per the Shop Manual. So apparently, right from the start, they did not intend to have a non-Oil Cooler version of it in production. I expected there would have been a non-Oil Cooler equivalent.

Conversely for A/C applications, it looks like the TV is the non-Oil Cooler equivalent to the TX.

Glad I don't have to worry about '65 details, but looks to me that somebody would need to figure out what the difference was between a TT Rad for non-A/C cars and the TV & TX as used for A/C cars to be sure you had the correct Rad for a given application.

[dld]

the 65 car w/ac did have a larger opening ( taller ) in core support and a shroud. the rad. was still 4 core but taller. remember if you got the 3.55 gear or lower in a 4v car it also would get the TT rad

[John V.]

Well there you go, there was a physical difference.

Different from '64, the 2-5/8" thick Rads were 17.5" tall, same used for A/C.

Agree on the 3.55 & 3.90 gear, same was true in '64 for the 4 bbl cars, required the HD Rad at extra cost.

[Option 382]

Originally Posted by John V.

Glad I don't have to worry about '65 details, but looks to me that somebody would need to figure out what the difference was between a TT Rad for non-A/C cars and the TV & TX as used for A/C cars to be sure you had the correct Rad for a given application.

A chart in the 65 chassis manual says TX were given to the automatic cars with A/C and TV were given to manual cars with A/C

[John V.]

Originally Posted by Option 382

A chart in the 65 chassis manual says TX were given to the automatic cars with A/C and TV were given to manual cars with A/C

Understood, Keith posted the Chart this morning, post #7.

The TX would have an Oil Cooler, the TV without Oil Cooler.

What confused me was why they needed a third 2-5/8" thick Rad, in '64 they only had two.

dld explains that the A/C cars got a taller Rad in '65, ie., the TV/TX are taller than the TT.

And remains a mystery why they chose NOT to use a man trans only equivalent to the TT in production.

[dld]

contract with vendor ?????

[John V.]

I don't think it had to do with the vendor. AFAIK, Harrison, as a captive GM producer, was the only rad vendor, pretty sure they would have produced any rad configuration PMD needed.

In '64, the man trans only equivalents do not appear to have been used in production early in the year, so I think they were a late release.

Even after release, a lot of man trans GTOs got the auto trans rads.

And PMD only serviced the rads with the auto trans design, with oil cooler.

Perhaps PMD just determined that they wouldn't need enough of each type to justify keeping both in inventory.

Since it appears that they did consider it justified to inventory both the TV & TX for A/C cars, not sure the quantities of A/C cars with man trans would have been expected to exceed the volumes of man trans Tri-Carb GTOs.

However, when they were establishing the expected needs, the man trans -Tri-Carbs WERE expected to get the man trans rad Code TN.

So at the time they released the TT, the only cars that were expected to need it were trailering option or Heavy Duty rad option or special axle ratios. In the aggregate, this would have been a pretty small total.

So when the decision was made to give the Tri-Carb GTOs the 3.55 axle, perhaps they simply decided to make do with the TT and didn't bother with adding a version of it without Oil Cooler.

Maybe they felt the decision to go with the 3.55 came too late to justify releasing the man trans only rad for it or maybe they just "forgot" that they could have done so.

Regardless of why it happened that all '65 Tri-Carb GTOs got the TT, pretty clear that they did.

[DAN]

Good info here. My question is, they're hard to read but what are the numbers on the metal tag and what do they mean? I can't find any numbers like those in any literature I have. Does A/C denote heavy duty?