[danpaul]

I have the original 4 spd that came with my 74 Firebird. The motor I built for the car (461 SD performance, Stump puller, blah blah, blah) will be close to 500 hp, don't know about the torque. I have been told that the Muncie will not last very long with this motor if I beat on it. I have been doing some research on the Tremec 5 or 600 and I am thinking that this is what I want for durability and mileage. I don't care about #s matching as the orig motor is long gone. My funds are limited am I am thinking of selling the Muncie and its Hurst linkage to help pay for the Tremec. My question for all of you is - what is the Muncie worth? What is the Hurst linkage worth? I would think that the condition is very good. I do not believe that it has ever been apart. I remember that it shifts smooth, no leaks that I can see. Its been in my storage shed for 9 years.

[Half-Inch Stud]

the Muncie will NOT last long:

Mechanical Clutch setting will go out of adjustment after a strong pull.

Muncie will chunk the Countershaft during the 2-3 upshift.

The concept of a TQ & Planetary gears will sharpen in you dreams; that the Drive // Driven shafted manual Muncie was conceived in the Roaring 20's way before high Compression and 500foot-Lbs TQ was on the drafting paper.

The 1" Countershaft was deemed necessary AFTER the powerplants were made in volume.

Stick with skinny tires & you be fine.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Try it out. keep the shifts certain, and the street driving on the primaries and it will be fine.

[tom s]

As HIS said,no big sticky tires.Tom

[Scott Thelander]

its a wide ratio according to the stamping ........A..........

so itlle have even more launching power ......with lower 1st, 2nd ,3rd , gears

maybe a 2.52 first eh ??

go skinny or get triple A ...AAA....

st

[Held for Ransom]

Dan,
Interesting that your '74 trans. has markings for a '73 model. Is it a very early built car and does the partial VIN match? Maybe they were using up old ones before the Borg-Warner units came out if a later build. My Sept. built car has the correct stampings.

[danpaul]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

Dan,
Interesting that your '74 trans. has markings for a '73 model. Is it a very early built car and does the partial VIN match? Maybe they were using up old ones before the Borg-Warner units came out if a later build. My Sept. built car has the correct stampings.

The partial VIN matches. I could not find the build date, but the ship date was 12-12-73.

[Dragncar]

So, a bit off topic but the tranny in my 79 WS6 400 4 speed TA has a VERY large output shaft.
What kind of 4 speed are they and how much power can they handle ? It has a real tall 1st gear.

[Held for Ransom]

Dan, they must have had one laying around and used it. Is the trim tag a 12A or 12B?
Interesting on Seifert too. They had two dealerships, no wonder I see a lot from there.

Dragncar, yours would be what's called a Borg-Warner Super (or Second design) T-10 (ST-10). Probably as strong as the Muncie in this thread.

[brut4s]

Here's another option http://autogear.net/

[HWYSTR455]

Yeah, the supercase is a good option for a 4-speed, but you're getting into 5 speed territory cost-wise.

The TKO-600 is the hot ticket, and if you want it to handle more power, you can get them with upgrades and cryo'd.

As for the M20, depends on how you drive. I ran M20s for a long time, behind power even, abused them, but never ran slicks. I would have to rebuilt them roughly every 20k miles or so, synchros, bearings, check shaft runout, etc. Cases lasted about 2 rebuilds. Guys with power run the supercase ones with slicks, and rebuild around the same intervals.

Selling them is a crap shoot, most view them as cores only. Or cores and parts. Might get someone that's interested in the case for the numbers though. I've seen desirable cases go for 350-600 bucks, but only worth that to restorers, and have to wait a long time to sell it.

.

[danpaul]

Thanks for all the replies. TKO-600 is what I will have someday. I think I will put the M20 in for now just so I can drive it.

[c sheeder]

I have a 488 stroker in my 66 GTO with 3.23 gears and a m20 trans....I HAVE NEVER had any issues with a Muncie....my Muncie holds up just fine....now I'm not at my full power potential on my combo but it does just fine.....running my car on the street flat shifting it I have no problems....of course it blows the tires off in the first 2 gears and part of third which helps for sure......but u won't have any problems with your tranny.....I posted a video on you tube a while back......its titled "speed shifting a 66 GTO"...check it out...that's the way I run my car and I have had no problem with my muncie

[fiedlerh]

I have seen Muncies go anywhere from $250 in rural areas to $700 in the big city for "good used".
What the coding on it? P3???A
A 73 date code would be correct.

[Skip Fix]

Years ago my first car 409 Impala had a Muncie I never had an issue and it had 5000 side steps 4.56 gars and slicks and ran low 12s @108 back in '72. BUT I did have an aluminum flywheel-part of why the 5000 side steps-and they were just fun They did tear all the ring gear bolts off the posi with a spacer though but never hurt the Muncie.

[Held for Ransom]

Horst, it looks like P3H01A.

P=Muncie 4-speed
3=Model year (made to go in a 1973 model vehicle)
H=Month (June)
01=Day (1st)
A=wide ratio

Adding my Formula's code...

[danpaul]

I finally located the cowl tag that I removed several years ago. Build date is - 11D or 4th week of Nov, 1973.

[Held for Ransom]

Cool. Sounds like they pulled it off the line to change out the transmission.

[Tom Vaught]

Hurt two of the Muncies (original case and a junk yard special 1960s time period).

Bought a Weber Aluminum Flywheel and a Borg & Beck clutch and fine-tuned the release point and power-shifted the trans for years.
10 Bolt Axles became the weak link with the tires I used. After rear #5 (including a 12 bolt) I went with a Ford 9" and never looked back.
Then started hurting the physical frame (even with the GM cross-member reinforcements).
So if you make a little power with a Manual Trans system, you need to expect "weak link" failures.

That being said, we installed a TKO 6 speed behind out 700+ HP Supercharged Ford Mustang "Pool Car" and needed to swap the factory rear for a 9" "Soft Locker" set-up.

Then we were letting a bunch of people drive the thing with a good set of drag radials on the car and went thru a bunch of clutches and flywheels when people missed gears, fried the clutch, overheated the flywheels, etc.

Lots of maint required with a high breakage with manual trans stuff SOMETIMES.
A "well built" Auto trans set-up can have an advantage.

So to cut to the chase, your Muncie over time will fail if abused with stock parts.

Lots of bandaids to make the thing live longer but the tires are usually the cheapest "fuse" in the system.
You will always impress the women with the tires frying thru 3rd gear.

Tom Vaught

[carcrazy]

Been down this road with a stock M-21 and it didn't end pretty. Big block 65 impala ss that later ran low 12's. No problem---until that first run with slicks!