[Jeff Hamlin]

OK gang everything was good with the ol Tempest 195 until now.
I went out to start her up and she wasn’t pumping fuel.
I had a similar issue when I started the re assembly of the little Indian and replaced the pump.
All was fine until now.
I've checked for all the obvious stuff;
Vapor Lock, Clogged lines, filters, bench tested 2 pumps and they check out.
The only thing I can come too is an eccentric issue.
Looking into the opening it looks ok just can’t tell much from that.

Are they the same as the V8?

Since I have a WP gasket issue to deal with I might as well open her up again.

As always, Thanks for any insight.

[rod cole]

A vacumn leak in the supply side will cause fits. If you have a mighty vac see if you can pull fuel from the tank with it. Rod

[Jeff Hamlin]

RC,
Thanks, we checked the lines and all appear good.
We also by-passed the line from the tank with a can.
With pump still installed on engine to see if she would draw and she did not

I see in the Ames Cat (61-63 tempest) they list the 4cyl & V8 eccentric as the same,
however the one we found off a donor is NOT the same as the one from the shop which is for a 389 V8.

So is it safe to say the 4cyl is diff?
I would like to not to have to install a used one if that what it turns out to be.

Thanks.

[mechanickeith]

The eccentrics are the same.

[Jeff Hamlin]

LH is the one off a 195 parts engine and the RH is for the 389 from the shop.

Based on the small tab/tang on the 4cly part I can see how this could/might be my issue,
sure isn't a lot of meat to hook in.

I will not be able to open her up for a while to see for sure what I do have.

Thanks

[mechanickeith]

I see what you are saying, but, that part is bolted solid to the front of the cam. If its turning & not actuating the pump arm, then its loose on the cam bolt. The sleeve should turn on the part thats bolted to the cam gear. Aside from the size of the tang, I see that the position of the tang in relation to the eccentric is different also. I have been running a V8 setup on my 4 cyl motor for over 10 years now with no issues. The only reason I can see for having the eccentric at a different position would be for vibration issues.

[cleveweld]

Was the car sitting for awhile before you tried to start it? If my car sits for awhile (several weeks) and the carburator bowl dries up, I can try to start it all day long and it won't pull fuel up. If I give it a shot of ether or gas down the carb, it will fire right up and pull gas up to fill bowl. To avoid this I start car about every 2 weeks.

[mechanickeith]

Originally Posted by cleveweld

Was the car sitting for awhile before you tried to start it? If my car sits for awhile (several weeks) and the carburator bowl dries up, I can try to start it all day long and it won't pull fuel up. If I give it a shot of ether or gas down the carb, it will fire right up and pull gas up to fill bowl. To avoid this I start car about every 2 weeks.

First,,my car never sits for weeks, second, I am using an electric pump back at the tank so I dont have any of those issues. I think Jeff's issues aer in the fuel system & not on the front of the cam at the eccentric area. If that area came loose or fell apart, he would have much more expensive issues to deal with. I would double check the entire system from the pickup in the tank all the way to the pump. Possibly have a cracked fuel line somewhere thats sucking air. Get a vacume gage & plumb it solid into the pump inlet. Then crank it over to make sure the pump is drawing a vacume. You could also wire in an electric pump in conjunction with the mechanical & use it as a primer for the mechanical pump. Turn on the electric for a couple of seconds till you hear it slow down, then start the motor & turn off the electric & let it run on the mechanical. This is also good for out on the road if the facrory pump goes out, you can bypass it & run off of the electric to get you home.

[Peter Serio]

One other thing to consider is all the crap that is now added into pump gasoline. Things such as grain alcohol and ethanol made from Corn to stretch the fuel plays hell on older rubber parts of a car's fuel system. It is advisable to replace ALL of the rubber hoses, the flexable parts and valves inside of the fuel pump and the accelorator pump inside of the carburator with brand new modern parts which are desigend to withstand what is now sold as "gasoline."

[Jeff Hamlin]

OK bare with me guys.
All the hoses are new. I run the car every weekend. When I went out to start and she didn't, we ran several test with no success.
We then disconnected the main line and ran a line into a fuel can.
The car cranks but would/did not pull fuel.
At that point we thought for sure it was the pump, we removed the pump and bench tested it and she is good.
Tried it again will no change.
A second known working pump was then installed with same results.
I may try one more NEW pump before opening it up.

Keith,
Thanks for the heads up on the use of V8 eccentric I would much rather use new if needed.

Man I love old Pontiacs

[beemergary]

The check valve in the pump isn't goofin up. Never saw that till a friend had his do that on the way home from Norwalk.

[mechanickeith]

Jeff,, Can you get a mirror down in there with a good flashlight & take a look at the cam area before opening it up?? This is really confusing. You would think if the eccentric came loose or broke, parts would of fell down into the timing chain & caused all sorts of problems.

Get pictures as it comes apart & keep us in the loop!!Waiting to see what you find.

[Jeff Hamlin]

Keith,
Believe me I really don’t want to tear it open again but if we must we must.
I have been able to look inside and as best I can see the eccentric is still attached, but I can’t tell if it is secure.

My thinking is (Which is of course a long shot) it is loose and the tang has worn/broke which is allowing the inner and outer pieces to spin freely. Again this is just a guess as everything else seems to check out OK.

I will however try one more pump and triple check the lines before jumping in.

Thank you all as always and have a Merry Christmas.

[rod cole]

Loosen pump bolts alot. 5-10 turns crank engine if pump jumps up and down not the ecentric. If it jumps retighten and install a vacumn gauge on inlet sould see I believe 5-7 inches of vacumn or more. Can check pressure side the same way only see psi instead of vacumn. Can also be a pin hole in line front to back so a vacumn pump would find that for you. They say work hard or smart you choose. lol Rod

[blueghoast]

I had a cam bolt come loose on me a long time ago.
I was running an electric fuel pump at that time also
so it didn't afect my fuel delivery. The thing is that I
never new that it had come loose intill I tore the motor
down for some reason. The bolt stayed in place cause
it couldn't fall out. It did round the edge of the bolt
threads and the entry threads of the cam but was
still useable. Just a thought. and good luck with it.

GT.

[beemergary]

Originally Posted by blueghoast

I had a cam bolt come loose on me a long time ago.
I was running an electric fuel pump at that time also
so it didn't afect my fuel delivery. The thing is that I
never new that it had come loose intill I tore the motor
down for some reason. The bolt stayed in place cause
it couldn't fall out. It did round the edge of the bolt
threads and the entry threads of the cam but was
still useable. Just a thought. and good luck with it.

GT.

Back in my younger days rebuilt a 69 GTO 400 motor. Forgot to tighten the cam bolt that holds the concentric. It backed out and was filling the crankcase with water. Caught it after only about 5 min. run time. Never hurt the motor. Lucky Me.

[blueghoast]

Yeh I hear ya; I use lock tight on every thing now.

GT.

[Jeff Hamlin]

Well we finally had some time to dig back into the Tempest.
After running through the check list items above (more than once I might add) we just couldn’t get fuel to the carb so we went ahead and opened it up and did indeed find an issue with the eccentric (see pic below), It sure didn’t look as if it could have caused all this aggravation

Upon getting it back together with high hopes the problem was solved, surer then sh!t she still would not draw fuel, MOTHERF !
At that point the 1st pump was put back on and we made sure it was pushing/pulling… CHECK, we then force fed the lines full of fuel front to back, connected them up and she fired.
We checked it over good then we went to lunch so as not to push the car into traffic in total frustration Came back later and again she started right up

I can only guess that the eccentric was loose and then shifted enough to lose pump action which allowed the line to be sucked dry upon final shutdown.
This is an assumption and we all know what they say about that.
I would be lying if I said we knew for sure what finally solved this puzzle and IMO that it started as one issue which led to others.

So boys and girls what have we learned? NOT A GODDA* THING

Man I love old cars

Thanks & Good night

[mechanickeith]

Interesting!!! Couple of questions for clarification?? Was the outer ring siezed up on the inner ring?? Was the bolt that retains the assembly to the cam tight??

[63 tempest]

Hey jeff oil is realy clean Now drive it like you stole it