[Buford T. JuSStice]

Wondering on a matter of opinion here... trying to stick to Hydraulic to save money, and further suggestions here are completely welcome. However, I do want to keep it simple since I am not a smart man, and given a wide range of options, it's likely that either one of two things will happen... either my poor little head will pop, or I'll take somebody's suggestion for a slightly wilder cam than what I'm looking for, and end up with something that I'm completely unhappy with.

That said, what I'm looking for is something on the deep end of what is considered mild... something I can use a stock converter with, and still manage to get a slightly rough idle out of the motor. Nothing too extreme really. The motor is going into a '80 Buick Century Wagon (Kind of like Project Sucker Punch... only not quite as extreme). Unlike Sucker Punch, I'm sticking with keeping the motor a 400. It'll probably have a Q-Jet, and headers as well, with Kauffman "D-Port" heads. (I was originally thinking about Edelbrock, but Kauffman's look better on paper and don't cost that much more) and will have a rebuilt TH200-4R from Extreme Automatics behind it.

If you need any further information I will gladly cough it up

Here is what I'm looking at right now:
Contender #1:
COMP Cams: Factory Muscle 041H
Contender #2:
COMP Cams: Xtreme Energy XE268H

For those of you who probably remember I was going to rebuild this motor as a 455 for my Catalina... that's not happening anymore, and you would be right in saying "Damn dude it takes you forever to get anything done, doesn't it!?" haha

I've been going to school for the past year and a half while working full time, so time and money have both been in short supply, but I've been saving my nickles and dimes, and dammit I'll do something with this motor if it's the last thing I do! LOL

[74Grandville]

those 2 cams are not similar at all.

I'd use the XE268H

[Buford T. JuSStice]

Originally Posted by 74Grandville

those 2 cams are not similar at all.

I'd use the XE268H

That was my first choice as well. Also, I know they aren't similar, but what they do have in common is that they're advertised as being safe with a stock converter, and both apparently have a slightly rough idle. (Or at least neither one warns that you should use a higher rpm converter or need higher compression or anything like that)

[chitownTA]

I'd take a look at the summit 2802 cam as well. It's in between the two listed. I ran one for a while on my 462 with 6x heads. It was fairly mild even with 9:1 compression and stock converter. It's on a 114 LSA which helps smooth the idle and widen the power band.

[Buford T. JuSStice]

Originally Posted by chitownTA

I'd take a look at the summit 2802 cam as well. It's in between the two listed. I ran one for a while on my 462 with 6x heads. It was fairly mild even with 9:1 compression and stock converter. It's on a 114 LSA which helps smooth the idle and widen the power band.

Looked at the cam... you're talking about This One? It says you should use a 2,500+ stall and have 9.5:1 Compression at least. I wonder why the Factory Muscle cam is advertised for lower RPM ranges, and doesn't warn against using a higher RPM stall and compression, yet it has longer duration and higher lift. Slightly confusing. You are correct though, it's right in between the other two cams more or less, and the price is definitely more appealing.

[455wagon]

For the 400 I would use the Summit 2801. The 2802 in the 400 is a little too much. The 2802 works great in a 455. I have done all three and I now have a 400 that needs a cam change to something smaller, like the 2801. With the stock convertor and the 2802 in a 400 I had to raise the idle to 1100 and then the carb was spilling more than metering. Then I added more convertor to make it work. Now I am rebuilding the carb to Cliff's recipe number 3. would have been way easier to put in a smaller cam. Just my 2 cents worth.

[David Jones]

Melling 068 clone

[Buford T. JuSStice]

@455 Wagon: Yeah, I was looking at the 2801 as well. Looks pretty good. Says it needs a 2,000+ stall and at least 9:1 compression, but I'm not really sure if that's really a requirement, or what.

To compare to the XE268H, the 2801 has longer advertised duration (272/282 vs 268/280) yet it's shorter @0.050" (214/224 vs 224/230) and the lift, using factory rockers is also shorter on the 2801 (442/465 vs 477/480) and the difference in lift between the intake and exhaust on the 2801 is also more significant. Lobe separation is 112 vs 110.

I guess they suggest the stall and higher compression because the cam favors the exhaust in the lift? How it manages to have shorter duration @0.050" is a little weird too. Kind of reminds me of something I read in a magazine where they took 1.5 rockers and used them on the intake, and used 1.65 on the exhaust, and got significant power gains because of it. Of course, I would consider something like that if it meant I could continue using a stock stall converter haha.

[lust4speed]

Neither the 2802 or the Comp RAIV replacement cam are going to be happy in front of a stock converter, and no combination of rockers will help. What it comes down to is increased duration raises the power curve up in the RPM range, and also raises the necessary idle RPM. The 400 is much more sensitive to cam size than a 455 - cubic inches will always mellow out a cam. It's frustrating to have the engine pulling hard on the converter at a stop light, and the idle RPM in neutral has to be uncomfortably high to compensate for the 400 RPM loss when dropped into drive.

Many of the nice modern cams with increased lift won't work without head work. A stock spring setup won't go too far before coil bind and retainer/seal interference. Even the 2801 is risky with the .440 and .470 lift with 1.5 ratio rockers. As David said above, the Pontiac 068 cam is a great choice for a stock converter and stock valve train 400 engine.

[screamingchief]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Many of the nice modern cams with increased lift won't work without head work. A stock spring setup won't go too far before coil bind and retainer/seal interference. Even the 2801 is risky with the .440 and .470 lift with 1.5 ratio rockers. As David said above, the Pontiac 068 cam is a great choice for a stock converter and stock valve train 400 engine.

FYI Mick,re-read his first post,he said he'll probably be using some KRE-D port heads.

Comp #51-208-4 (275 DEH) would probably be my choice for a decent HFT cam that's gonna be used with a stock converter.

And it should'nt require anything special in terms of the valvetrain parts either,as the parts that come on the KRE-D's will be more than up to the task.

JM2¢

Bret P.

[chiphead]

I'd run the 2801 or the 068. Something in the 215/225 duration with 112 LSA and fairly early intake closing. No way I'd use the XE268. It's gotten bad reviews in many of the engines it's been tried in.

What compression and rear gears?

[Buford T. JuSStice]

Originally Posted by chiphead

I'd run the 2801 or the 068. Something in the 215/225 duration with 112 LSA and fairly early intake closing. No way I'd use the XE268. It's gotten bad reviews in many of the engines it's been tried in.

What compression and rear gears?

According to my handy dandy compression calculator, 9.85:1 with the KRE D-Ports. I planned on using 3.23 or 3.43 in the rear. Good for pickup and hauling some stuff but not too hard on mileage.

[Bruce Meyer]

I vote for the Summit 2801 also. Just put together a 400 with one and it idles fine even with the AC on. For the price you just cant beat it.

[chiphead]

Heck, I figured this was an 8.5 CR motor with 3.08 gears. At or below 220* of intake duration and you'll be fine. Maybe even look at a small Crower cam....

[Buford T. JuSStice]

@ Screaming Chief & Lust4Speed: Yes, I'll be using KRE-D's. They advertise, that complete heads come with "Hydraulic cam springs for up to .600 lift" so any of the cams we're looking at here would work.

So basically the contenders come down to...
Summit's 2801 - Great price and seems to offer reasonable performance.

Melling 068 Clone - Older cam technology, but is proven and will definitely work for my application. Probably offers plenty of power too.

I've gotten at least one PM saying Pacific Performance's 264/270 "Tomahawk" Cam is good. Not a whole lot of details however on each individual cam on their website though. Just some general information.

I also saw This One from Crower which seems pretty good. I especially like how Crower is much more detailed in their descriptions of what you should have in order to get the most out of the cam. That's a huge selling point in my opinion because it'll help me itemize more efficiently.

So far my head hasn't popped yet thankfully, but at least I'm narrowing down my selections, right? LOL

I think I can eliminate the XE268H due to the reservations I've seen some people voice over them, and the Factory Muscle cam we've determined is too hot, as well as the 2802 Summit cam.

Of the four I mentioned above, the one I like the least is the Pacific Performance cam, and that's only because there simply isn't a whole lot of information on the website about the cam or what else you'll need to make it work, and the one I like the most is the Crower because it tells you... well... everything. The Melling Clone and the 2801 are both safe from elimination because nothing beats having experience with something and it seems that both of these have been used by you guys.

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by Buford T. JuSStice

I also saw This One from Crower which seems pretty good. I especially like how Crower is much more detailed in their descriptions of what you should have in order to get the most out of the cam. That's a huge selling point in my opinion because it'll help me itemize more efficiently.

That is the one that I was gonna suggest with a stock converter. I have used one of those in a bone stock `79 Trans Am. Even though it was a 4 speed car, I believe it will be well mannered in an auto car.

[6t7goat]

I ran the PPR HFT TC-02 cam and it made some good power in my 461 with 4x heads. My comp ratio was about 9.3 to 1. It was a little less vacuum than I liked. My car has A/C and power brakes. It has a mean sounding idle and you could tell it was far from stock. It would blow the tires off my 78 trans am with 3.42 gears and TH350. Unfortunatly I broke a lifter and rocker stud and took the cam out. The rest of the engine survived so I just went to a custom ground comp hyd roller set up. I Figure that a roller is the way to go so I bit the bullet on the cost.

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by 6t7goat

I ran the PPR HFT TC-02 cam and it made some good power in my 461 with 4x heads. My comp ratio was about 9.3 to 1. It was a little less vacuum than I liked. My car has A/C and power brakes. It has a mean sounding idle and you could tell it was far from stock. It would blow the tires off my 78 trans am with 3.42 gears and TH350. Unfortunatly I broke a lifter and rocker stud and took the cam out. The rest of the engine survived so I just went to a custom ground comp hyd roller set up. I Figure that a roller is the way to go so I bit the bullet on the cost.

That 461 is gonna be more mellow than that 400 he`s running with any given cam.
Also, the stock converter puts him in a box as far as cams go.

[Lee]

Power brakes as well, I assume? Power brakes with a stock converter, along with a shorter stroke motor (400) eliminates a BUNCH of cam choices!

IMHO, you'd be better off with a stroker crank and stock heads than a 400 with aluminum heads, for the goals you've stated.

Lee

[lust4speed]

Yep, I did miss the mention of the KRE's in the first thread. So scratch the 068 - great cam if you can't go for lift, but with the Kaufman heads you can. I believe they will go up to .600" lift as delivered.

Bret, I gather the 51-208-4 is on Comp's favorite 110 LSA? Would you stretch that out to 112° since this is a 400 street engine?

For those that haven't looked it up yet, duration is 219/228 @ .050" for this cam. I'd probably go with the 1.65 rockers and get a little more lift out of the combination. That would kick the .462/.480 up to .508/.528 with 1.65's. Shouldn't that lift still lead a good long life with the HFT cam?