[bryansMtngto]

Ok just thinking down the road. As i get ready to add a supercharger. Being that I want to run E-85 and possibly 20-30 lbs of boost think I am going to use a Methanol Injection kit to help prevent detonation. I have installed a few of the Snow Perfomance Kits on some diesels. Was thinking about using 1 of their 25lb Plus boost kit. Has anyone else used another brand they can Recommend?? Or what your opinion may be??
Engine is a AllPontiac 541 with E heads.
vehicle 3000lb 1967 GTO with a turbo 400.

[bryansMtngto]

ok have done some more searching and found 2 more companies.
Devils Own
Coolingmist

anyone using any of these?? Pros/cons?

[bad69bird]

If I were to use one, I would use the AIS kit that Steve Morris sells. Imo, fwiw.

[bankbook]

I have the AIS kit and it is a nice piece. Not to sure of the necessity of it with ethanol though. Give them a call and see.

[70 bird]

I have 2 coolingmist kits, one on my ford and one on my bird that I bought off of ebay a few years back for $175 ea. I like the kits and havent had any problems but I am nowhere near the boost level your looking to run. I have been up to 15 psi. on the street with serious traction problems. lol.
If I was in the market for one now I would look into the ais trunk mount system.

[bryansMtngto]

yea I emailed AIS this morning waiting to hear back. To see what they recommend for my Lil project.. I have emailed all the companies mentioned so far. Once i hear back I'll try and figure out which system best suits my application and go from there.

[Brian Baker]

OK...white elephant in the room so I'll ask.

If you are running E-85, which can be anywhere from 70%-85% ethanol per government regulations, why would you need to run methanol injection?

[Jack Gifford]

Saved me from asking, Brian. I had just assumed that I must have read something wrong.

[bryansMtngto]

from what i have discussed with afew guys that are running it. E-85 octane rating is between 100-105. when guys have tried to run large boost with it. Detonation has come into play. methonol is at 110. So thinking of using it as a knock reducer/ cooling the intake charge. So then shouldnt have to run a intercooler. to try and save alittle weight. Could run just straight methanol. But like the advantage of e-85 can buy just down the street. Little less maintaince then the methanol. So time will tell as I get this project together.

[v869tr6]

You didn't mention if you plan to go EFI or carb, but if you go EFI why not run E85 on the street and go with E98 when you turn the boost up. I see people running over 50 PSI on E98 with a 4 cylinder.

[BruceWilkie]

Water alone supresses detonation and pre ignition because it doesnt burn. Adding methanol or other alcohols(washer fluid has isopropyl alcohol in it)does a few things. Primary it adds and blends fuel to the water which helps in the combustion process to help heat the water in a more uniform way than trying to get water to mix with fuel in the combustion chamber. Because water itself doesnt burn it slows the combustion process in a manner similar to high octane vs lower octane.

Secondary thing a water alky mix does especially in a supercharged application is lower inlet air temps due to evaporation of the alcohol. Lower inlet temps also help supress detonation and pre ignition.

Adding water/alky mix allows higher boost pressures(greater a/f density) and compression for a given fuels octane rating than could be obtained with that particular fuel alone, thus allowing increased hp despite the introduction of an unburnable substance(water).

A 50/50 mix of water/meth seems to work well. Adding greater percent of methanol to the water can often add more hp IF enough oxygen is present during combustion to burn the additional alcohol.

I've personally had very good results with water injection system just using wintergrade washer fluid.(readily available most anywhere and cheap) A home made system that was regulated by boost and used boost to move the water.(No pumps or electronics needed the more boost the more fluid flows.)
This allowed me to run my full 22psi boost and 27 degree total timing on gas with much lower octane than I had to run without the water injection. Originally set up in early -mid 70's on good 100+ octane leaded gas available most anywhere for awhile. As readily available high octane got harder to find and I started having detonation issues on the lousy gas that was getting common so I added the water injection system. Further into mid-late 70's pump premium was probably at best 91 unleaded.
I've used this type system on a few turbo regals and Mopar 4 cylinders with good results. My own turbo Lebaron I could run 89 octane vs 91 or better it preferred without the water. (I never tried 87 but think it may have worked. There was only a few tweaks you could easily do to the early EFI Turbo Mopar back then such as cheating the waste gate a bit.)

I see few obstacles for a similar type system to work on a supercharged motor.

BTW its NOT something I invented. I merely copied it. Its very simple and low cost to near free depending on what you might have laying around.

[ericwy]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Water alone supresses detonation and pre ignition because it doesnt burn. Adding methanol or other alcohols(washer fluid has isopropyl alcohol in it)does a few things. Primary it adds and blends fuel to the water which helps in the combustion process to help heat the water in a more uniform way than trying to get water to mix with fuel in the combustion chamber. Because water itself doesnt burn it slows the combustion process in a manner similar to high octane vs lower octane.
<snip>

X2 what BruceWilkie says.

I use water/meth (75/25) injection (not boosted, but allows me to use 87 octane gas vs 93 I was using before) simply awesome results.
Also, the water requires large amounts of heat in order to change from water to vapor. That heat is obtained from the intake charge, manifold, cylinder/heads, and combustion process resulting in big drop in temperature. The Methanol aides combustion and adds to octane rating.

[BruceWilkie]

A friend that tried the method I described was finding more power and able to add more boost up to 70%meth. Beyond that he had to start taking jet out of his carb. This was draw thru setup though. Looking around the internet some guys are running 100% meth. I think it would be safe to assume that every combo is going to respond to what works best in its application. Some are just using washer solvent like I did and never bother to see if methanol would be worth swapping to. In my case 50/50 meth/water didnt seem to make any difference over the easier to find washer solvent and at the time never thought to try changing percentages. Seat of pants didnt notice difference from straight water really. I was happy I solved the detonation from junk gas.

[bryansMtngto]

right now im set up with a Ron's terminator Mechancial Injection system with 16 injectors Plan on blowing the supercharger thru the thottlebody.
QUOTE=v869tr6;4352941]You didn't mention if you plan to go EFI or carb, but if you go EFI why not run E85 on the street and go with E98 when you turn the boost up. I see people running over 50 PSI on E98 with a 4 cylinder.[/QUOTE

[BruceWilkie]

Some ideas for you. This should work with a Vortech or Procharger too. The impeller makes a great atomizer. I used the method on bottom of page. Tank has to be lower than where it enters compressor to prevent siphon.

It meters water/alky proportional to boost. Jetting likely should be increased area proportional to ci increase. Could use an aquarium air valve to tune flow quanity vs fixed jet size.

Note tortured path of Corvair intake. Distribution cylinder to cylinder was still very good largely due to mixing/atomization provided by the turbo's impeller.

Added a picture of my next water tank too. Attached pdf file is easier to read.

[Torment]

Originally Posted by bryansMtngto

Ok just thinking down the road. As i get ready to add a supercharger. Being that I want to run E-85 and possibly 20-30 lbs of boost think I am going to use a Methanol Injection kit to help prevent detonation. I have installed a few of the Snow Perfomance Kits on some diesels. Was thinking about using 1 of their 25lb Plus boost kit. Has anyone else used another brand they can Recommend?? Or what your opinion may be??
Engine is a AllPontiac 541 with E heads.
vehicle 3000lb 1967 GTO with a turbo 400.

Assuming your static cr is in the 8's:1 range, and further that you're employing a Procharger or turbo, pump E85 will fine at 20lbs - been done many times. Shortly thereafter though you'll want to look at E98 - much better fuel when you step up the boost, and you'll have no fuel related issues at 30lbs. Should be one honking muther though if you can keep it all together

No real need for the water/meth system. IMHO you'll just be adding needless complication.

[GOAT8U2]

I run E85 in all 3 of my Performance Cars (two are turbo'd) and run Methanol Injection in two of them on top of the E85. It's awesome and the results are frankly, not fair to others.

Devils Own
Alky Control

I think an Intercooler is a PIA to customize and install in Big Blocks and in the end won't be worth the $ and time vs Methanol Injection, especially if you're already on E85.

I'd consider running a Pre-Supercharger nozzle of around (4gph) and a Post-Supercharger nozzle around (14gph or an M15) and do this on 100% Methanol. You'll cool the compressor wheel down making it more efficient and then make the inlet charge much denser for more power and higher boost levels. I've never seen a Forced Induction fuel system not need some headroom at WOT with E85, the Methanol will give you up to 30% if you run Twin Post-Supercharger nozzles. That's a money saver if your fuel pump is near the edge and if you overboost and blow the heads off it.

E85 will lower the MAT temps and act like a mini intercooler, but in an Injected setup like yours it's not nearly as much vs a Carb'd setup like my GTO (750 Holley). This means you have room to lower this inlet air and be safer.

E98 can't be found at a gas station, that's a huge knock against it. It also needs a tad more % of fueling vs E85 which taxes your fuel system that much more.

If your static compression is 9:1 or lower, you have no worries with the setup above, if it's a higher ratio, then add another Methanol Nozzle and drop that temp even more.

[bryansMtngto]

No torment static CR is not in the 8's its just a tad below 10 to 1. Since it was built for a blown alchy fuel type. Once i do head mod for the extra bolt may go up around 30 or so. Will have to see were its at on the track once im up and running. That may dictate what i try and run for boost. Shooting for a 7.50 next year once all work is done.

Originally Posted by Torment

Assuming your static cr is in the 8's:1 range, and further that you're employing a Procharger or turbo, pump E85 will fine at 20lbs - been done many times. Shortly thereafter though you'll want to look at E98 - much better fuel when you step up the boost, and you'll have no fuel related issues at 30lbs. Should be one honking muther though if you can keep it all together

No real need for the water/meth system. IMHO you'll just be adding needless complication.

[Torment]

We should keep in touch. I'll be upping the boost this fall on my 526ci. I'm at 9.5:1 and I'm looking for about 22-23lbs on E98. Standard head stud configuration - no extra bolts yet. 7.50 should be attainable at your weight. Good luck!

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Torment

Assuming your static cr is in the 8's:1 range, and further that you're employing a Procharger or turbo, pump E85 will fine at 20lbs - been done many times. Shortly thereafter though you'll want to look at E98 - much better fuel when you step up the boost, and you'll have no fuel related issues at 30lbs. Should be one honking muther though if you can keep it all together

No real need for the water/meth system. IMHO you'll just be adding needless complication.

Much the reason I suggested the very simple system above. Boost pressurizes the tank, water flows out the hose to a jet. The amount injected controlled by boost and jet size, it self regulates. Quite uncomplicated. You can get fancier and add an adjustable air bleed to the tank or use an aquarium air supply adjustment valve for your jet, even add a swiched valve to delay point injection starts. Main purpose is detonation/preignition prevention but adding alcohol lowers inlet temps further.

In practice it is like running a higher octane fuel and can allow greater timing, compression, boost etc.. Only need to inject enough to control detonation/preignition. Washer solvent worked great for me and its cheap and found most anywhere.

Could be used on a roots blower if you route the water to carb inlets. (modify a set of pump squirters off an old carb and mount to direct the flow where you want it.)

Cheap to make. Study the pdf. file I posted. I'm using the Heinekin mini keg for the tank for my project. Coors and others have similar cans. I'll tell the the dumb ones I run beer injection.