[INJUNTOM]

I've found what i believe may be a real '69 Judge, and am working on getting it, but i'd like to try to determine what it is while waiting for PHS docs.

It has a freshly rebuilt WS with #48 heads, and 4 spd.

exactly what part of the VIN will be stamped into the block?

It's a Z code built in Fremont...would this be correct?

It doesn't have the stripe on the sides, but does have the Judge decals.

I didn't look, but my buddy says it had the Judge emblem on the glovebox

I'm going to try to go back over there this weekend to get the VIN, and take another look. I wasn't looking to purchase the first time i went over there, but may be able to get the 10K asking price gathered up.

[BLKBRD]

My suggestion is to wait for the PHS to come in. If the PHS says that it's a Judge, proceed ahead with the verification of the components that are installed on the car. A reasonable internet search will provide you with just about any information you could want to know.

By the way, the hood appears to have issues. It appears severely bowed in the the pictures

[kaysersuzuki]

10k sounds awfully cheap for a real judge,that boy live in the sticks with no tv or puter

[The Boss]

I hate seeing pictures like that - left outside to rot.....unless it's around here that is!

[dxeven]

Originally Posted by INJUNTOM

exactly what part of the VIN will be stamped into the block?

It's a Z code built in Fremont...would this be correct?

The engine should be stamped 29ZXXXXXX
2 = Pontiac
9 = 1969
Z = Fremont
XXXXXX = Last six digits of VIN

Good luck with the purchase, let us know how things turn out

Dave

[R 70 Judge]

From Classical Pontiac website -

First of all every Judge had either a Ram Air or HO motor. By checking the block code on the engine and verifying the VIN on the engine with the car you are at least assured that it is equipped with the correct motor.

The trunk lid is another area to check. The spoiler added a fair amount of weight and necessitated heavier springs. If the lid won't stay up on it's own it might not be original. The lids were also punched from the factory for the bolts from the spoiler. Take a look underneath and see if the mount looks "professional". Many of the reproduction spoilers were molded in one piece while the originals were three piece with separate struts.

Most 1969 Judges were Carousel Red so look for the paint code 72 on the data plate on these. Hardtops without a vinyl roof will have 72 twice for the upper and lower color. Convertibles and cars with vinyl tops will have a 72 and then the code for the top color. A 72 does not guarantee a Judge as there are several documentes GTOs that were special ordered in Carousel Red. If it is a Ram Air car and it was special ordered with Carousel Red it may be worth almost as much as a Judge anyway.

Another tip off is a build date before January of 1969 - there were no Judges built in 1968.

All Judges were delivered with either Rally IIs or honeycomb wheels (available in '71). Don't discount a car on this as wheels are obviously easily changed. Also, although the Rally IIs were specified with no trim rings they were often added so the existence of rings or marks where they have been really doesn't mean much one way or the other.

The grills on all Judges were "blacked out".

[ponjohn]

Tom-

Pay the extra 10 bucks for a fax return. PHS will fax the important info to you and mail all the propaganda.

John

[A455GTO]

PHS is the only way to be sure - just run it yourself, after you get the VIN from the dash. Small price to pay for this valuable service!

Gary

[INJUNTOM]

Originally Posted by BLKBRD

My suggestion is to wait for the PHS to come in. If the PHS says that it's a Judge, proceed ahead with the verification of the components that are installed on the car. A reasonable internet search will provide you with just about any information you could want to know.

By the way, the hood appears to have issues. It appears severely bowed in the the pictures

The hood is buckled, but he is supposed to have another hood.

[INJUNTOM]

Originally Posted by kaysersuzuki

10k sounds awfully cheap for a real judge,that boy live in the sticks with no tv or puter

I believe that he simply isn't a Pontiac guy, but he does know that it is worth a lot. his idea of a lot is 10k

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Like ponjohn said $45 to PHS before lunchtime will have you a fax back in probably 2 hours or less.

VIN 29Zxxxxxx stamp on passenger side front machined area of block. The 6 or 7 digit numeric/number stamped directly above or below WS is not the VIN stamp. It's the mystical Engine Unit Number stamp. The VIN stamp can be anywhere on that passenger side flat area from the oil pan up to the cylinder head on a Cal. built Pontiac.

Get the VIN and write all the trim tag info down. PNT code 72 for Carousel Red. If it's had a color change to Carousel from some other original color - still wouldn't count it out until PHS verdict. Could still be a Judge or RamIII GTO.

Hood scoop inserts should be fiberglass with open ports. Look for any/all of the Ram Air pans, scoop flapper set up and cables/controls - or evidence of their prior existence. The Money Carburetor #7028273 (28273)or 7029273 (29273). Be ready to put that money together fast. Looks like may be a one piece Car or close, with WS/4psd and mini-Grilles still in front valance. Hideaway Headlight Car.

Good Luck Tom, for sure.

[GTO JOHN]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Tom-

Pay the extra 10 bucks for a fax return. PHS will fax the important info to you and mail all the propaganda.

John

Worth the extra $10 every day of the week!!!!

PHS if you fax credit card and pay for retrun fax service less than 4 hours.
PHS if you fax in credit card takes 6 days.
PHS if you mail credit card takes 2 weeks.
PHS if you mail in check takes 4-6 weeks.

If I was looking seriously at a potential Judge I'd get the PHS pronto befor ethe seller finds out.

Good luck and post pics if you get it.

[SWEETJUDGE]

PHS is truely your only way. Without that anything can be cloned.

[INJUNTOM]

OK, took another look, and got some more info.

I found the last 6 of the VIN on the block - upside down.

The scoops are fiberglass.

The carb # is 7029263 - My info shows it as a '69 350hp Man trans?

The rear spoiler is 3 pieces

Paintcodes are 72/72

Can see where the side stripes used to be, and were removed at one time.

The Ram Air system is missing.

The hood scoops say Ram Air IV - been there a long long time.

Disc brakes

The Judge emblem is on the glovebox.

Still has the RA exhaust manifolds.

Rearend is a 12 bolt, and has a swaybar. should be a 10 bolt right?

Console bracket is there, console gone. may bein trunk, couldn't get into the trunk.

The carpet is removed, and can see very nice floor pans.

Slight damage on Rt. rear quarter panel, and small rust hole showing at the edge of the chrome trim on the left rear quarter.

Wheels have been swapped to 15" Rallys

Can see that the trans is aluminum.

Engine and trans are supposed to both be rebuilt.

Haven't seen the other "Nice" hood yet.

[INJUNTOM]

Data plate reads like this:

ST 69-24237 BF 06334BDY

TR 258B80 72 72 PNT

03D 064154 590431

[INJUNTOM]

Here's the deal:

I was considering selling my project PHS documented '64 GTO, and my project '65 GTO clone to buy this, but decided i'd rather have the other 2 in the long run.

My buddy actually found this car, and was willing to let me get it, so since I won't be getting it, he's going to buy it, and ebay it.

It obviously needs a complete resto, but is a cool one to start with.

What do you guys think it will bring?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

He's got a good chance to double his money - probably at the least. Clean the heck out of it with the front and rear window trim removed. Tune up and oil change. Get passenger headlight cover to stay up on it. Take some real excellent quality pictures of it before/after clean-up and lay it on the bay. The paint may even machine glaze decent and bounce up a bit. Probably a few members here who would put really honest cash offers on it.


GREAT FIND ! I had a good feeling about this old Car. He still needs to fax for PHS. I'd like to see how it was equipped myself. It 'may' have been a 3spd with 3.55 peg or 4spd with 4.33 HD, Hideaway conversion - never know. At the VERY least - it's either a special order Carousel GTO RamIII manual that had some later Judging treatment or it's The Judge - with an original WS engine - or it may be a restamped block and the Car was originally IV like the hood scoop decals.

7029263 is the WT 350HP manual trans carb. Pretty fair alternate, could be much worse. Several guys here would be happy to have that Car as a keeper.

[INJUNTOM]

Also a non A/C car

He would probably entertain some serious offers before it hits the bay. He's not an ebayer, and has 1 transaction, so we would probably use my ebay account.

He already has a '68 GTO conv. to build that belonged to his late father.

I plan on faxing the PHS in tomorrow.

[ponjohn]

Tom-

Let us know about the PHS, curious. He can certainly double his money IF PHS comfirms its Judge status.

[flyingn]

also notice the black grill(s). Only Judges has em.. GTO's had silver..