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#1
09-30-2006, 09:07 PM
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Need expert machinist advice
I've got a 400 that's been sleeved but never run. I've sleeved cylinders before and know that you always leave a lip on the bottom (put it on a shelf) to trap the sleeve. However this sleeve goes all the way down. Now it's still on a shelf at the main web but even there it stops about .100" short of the lip. Do I trust that there is enough press fit that it will be o.k. or is there something I can do help the situation. Should I cut out the sleeve and put in another one and bottom it out? Any suggestions?
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#2
09-30-2006, 09:38 PM
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I would get another block unless you are sleev`n for more cid/dry block. Next would be to check if correct sleeve/machine for sleeve, and sounds like sleeve has not yet been Installed? and that may make it bottom out. A good sleeve (if any) requires so much force to fit (and bore/hone after) that it`s not gonna move too much - atleast not upwards (head will stop it!) and piston will never go down far enough to care about 1? cylinder.
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#3
09-30-2006, 10:17 PM
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Getting another block is not an option. I have to use this block to keep the car original.
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#4
10-01-2006, 09:11 AM
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Anyone? I also thought it may be best to find a thicker wall sleeve, cut out the old one, and go slightly bigger for the new sleeve leaving a lip (although a small one) for the new sleeve. Biggest worry I have is that I don't know who sleeved it before and how much press fit they used. I'm just concerned that it could possibly, under the right conditions, move down. Did I mention it's a RAIV block? It has to be right!
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#5
10-01-2006, 09:50 AM
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This is just a thought. If you are that worried about the sleeve moving down you can pin it in. Use a 90 deg. drill, drill 4 holes at 90 deg. to each other about 1/2 inch up from the bottom of the sleeve. use a .235 drill bit. x 3/8 deep and then ream it to 1/4 inch and press fit a 1/4 soft steel pin. with lock tight. You can even peen over the hole to make sure it will not back out. It will not inter fear with a thing.
I bet this is what happened. The installer shrunk down the sleeve with dry ice. As the sleeve was installed it expanded to soon and got stuck. It never made it to the bottom becasue of the press fit. If you hit he sleeve with a fire extinguisher and freeze it down try tapping it in further in. If it can move this will make it move. If this fails I would use it as is. It would have to be a slip fit to make it slide at this point. Rust will make it permeantly locked in place too. You can use a punch to peen the block under the sleeve to keep it from moving to. If you need more suggestions, I am out of them.
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 Bob C.Quickest, Fastest, Best selling Pontiac Aftermarket Block IA II and Tiger Heads Boss Bird Funny Car Best pass to date 08/06/2016 6.027@231.64 Allpontiac Big Chief Aluminum Engine Block http://www.AllPontiac.com Last edited by Robert C.; 10-01-2006 at 09:58 AM. |
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#6
10-01-2006, 11:53 AM
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Would have to see pics before i could give you an opinion.
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#7
10-01-2006, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
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Systems under stress fail catastrophically |
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#8
10-01-2006, 01:08 PM
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Have the sleeve machined out and install another.
Doesn't matter if it's a RAIV block or not, the question is if it can repaired to be put back in service and if not then it can alway's be placed aside and you can say "here's the original block" |
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#9
10-01-2006, 10:14 PM
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I absolutely must use this block. I did some measuring today and found they used a fairly thin wall sleeve. I think I've decided to go with a thick wall sleeve, which according to my measurements, is .110" bigger on the o.d. leaving a .055" step per side. This seems like they way to go right now. Any comments on that?
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#10
10-02-2006, 01:54 AM
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Do you mean a new sleeve .110" larger O.D. than the existing sleeve? If so, I think that loss of original cast iron wall integrity would be a concern. But I'm just a shade-tree mechanic- what do the experts say?
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#11
10-02-2006, 06:33 AM
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Yes the new sleeve I have (purchased at one time for another job) is .110" larger than the sleeve that's installed in the block now. I've used this same size sleeve in another 400 block before with no problems but that one was bottom filled w/ hard block.
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#12
10-02-2006, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
He seems commited to what he's going to do anyway. Race Hard & Have fun. |
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#13
10-02-2006, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
I'm not totally commited yet. I'm not one to think I know better than anyone else. If I were like that my name would be Fulper. I like to have many opinions and then decide what to do. The sleeve I'm thinking about using is 4.375" o.d. Is that too big? I have used it before with no short term issues, but long term??? |
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#14
10-02-2006, 11:38 AM
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At least if you properly change the questionable sleeve you will have peace of mind that it will stay put and keep the water where it should be- in the water jacket.
I have installed many "thick wall" sleeves (1/8" wall thickness) in all types of blocks including Pontiacs and never had a problem. But I only go with the thick sleeve if absolutely necessary. The main reason being that the thicker the sleeve you install the more is cutout from the area that holds the deck to the original cylinder wall so the deck is weaker around that cylinder. The sleeve definatley needs something mechanical to keep it from moving down once the heads are torqued and the fire ring of the gasket pushes down on the sleeve. One option is to Pin the bottom of the sleeve. My favorite pins are from lock-n-stitch because they don't spread the cast iron, they pull it together. The best for cracks too. Another is to just install a .015" oversize sleeve or larger and leave a step in the bottom of the bore. If the sleeve moves south over a .007" or larger step you have bigger problems. Another way is to get another sleeve that is at least 7.25" long and cut it along the bottom before you install it so the bottom of the sleeve ends up with a wide "leg" that will rest on the main saddle, if of course that hole has a saddle under it. I think its #2 and #7 that don't on a Pont. I normally just do the slightly oversize method with step myself... I am assuming the "thin" sleeve that was put in has around a 3/32 wall. I like to keep the step about 3/8 from the bottom of the bore in the block. And don't forget the green loctite! Keeps the water out of the oil. |
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#15
10-02-2006, 02:18 PM
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FWIW:
That's why I wanted a pic. Sometimes a block is scored and ya try and bore it to see if it will clean up. It won't. So you then cut it out to fit a sleeve. It's stepped but you might be seeing the .060 overbore that wouldn't clean and stepped underneath. I would mic the bore under the sleeve and see what ya got first. .
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#16
10-02-2006, 02:20 PM
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And what crazypont said. I have seen thick sleeves installed in busted blocks (windowed) and then split the sleeve because there is not enough support behind the sleeve. it gives under load.
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#17
10-02-2006, 03:04 PM
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Sorry I never got you a pic Dude but you can easily see the sleeve top and bottom. You can lay calipers across it and measure the thickness of the wall fairly close. They definitely bored all the way through. I'm sleeving another cylinder due to pitting. Apparently this block sat for a while or something caused it to rust. This block is to restore a 69 Judge and it will be for show and probably will be a trailer queen. I doubt if he's going to race it or run it hard. Of course I don't know that for a fact. It is a RAIV, who can resist having fun once in a while?
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#18
10-02-2006, 06:26 PM
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If you do find a window behind there use a good 1/8" thick sleeve from L.A. sleeve or equivilant. They have sleeves that are centrifically cast -much stronger than the regular Melling or "parts store" sleeves.
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#19
10-02-2006, 08:03 PM
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That's exactly what I have, an 1/8" thick L.A. Sleeve # L-52B.
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#20
10-04-2006, 10:21 AM
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Fix'n Da Block
Wire weld the sleeve in 4 places 3/8" wide, grind off excess, now the sleeve won't move up and down, lightly hone.
You're good to go !! Pontiac Gregg
__________________
Greg Merrick |
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