[SWEETJUDGE]

I know there was some discussions about this, & just got a new ames catalogue & they are advertising them.

1 im not sure im for this
2 is there going to be a way to tell the differences between the originals??
3 what is this gonna due to the value of the real heads?
4 NOW EVERY CAR WILL BE A RAM AIR IV.

I think we are crossing vette & cobra guys here, meaning there are more on the streets now than ever produced.

ANY INFO & your thoughts CHIME IN!

[Verdoro 68]

Wow. As the owner of a meek and "ordinary" '68, I hope you'll allow me to comment.

I apologize if this comes off as confrontational, but it's this kind of elitist attitude in the hobby that really irks me. IMO, there's nothing wrong with bringing the best Pontiac had to offer to the masses. We're all Pontiac people here. Who doesn't drool over a set of round port heads?

Originally Posted by SWEETJUDGE

1 im not sure im for this

I am, but you probably already guessed that. I'd love a set of round ports, but I can't pay what people are asking for originals. Realistically, the repros will probably cost more than a set of KRE or Edelbrock aluminum heads though.

Originally Posted by SWEETJUDGE

2 is there going to be a way to tell the differences between the originals??

Probably. I'm sure who ever is reproducing them isn't stupid. They'll probably all have the same casting date (if any at all) and casting number (if any at all). I'm guessing they'll be like RARE manifolds.

Originally Posted by SWEETJUDGE

3 what is this gonna due to the value of the real heads?

Hopefully bring them back down to earth. However, I bet they won't have any effect on the prices of originals. First, they'll probably be in the same monetary ballpark as originals. Second, there will always be the concourse "I need XXX date code" folks who will pay top dollar for the real things.

Originally Posted by SWEETJUDGE

4 NOW EVERY CAR WILL BE A RAM AIR IV.

I translated this as "I don't want to let the riff raff into my secret club." PHS. Ever heard of it? Besides, what's to stop someone from putting RA IV heads on a non-RA IV car right now?

[Greg Reid]

I agree with Verdoro 68...Of course, that's probably no surprise as I am part of the riff raff.
I remember when a GTO was really considered something special. Nowadays, if it isn't a RA or Judge, it may as well be a Malibu.

[SWEETJUDGE]

Thanks for chiming in, Thats what its here for. I hear ya & im by no means of this elite crowd, Im a broke 35 year old married with kids own my own BIZ & bust my a$$ all day long to make ends meet. Im very aware of PHS, but no one has it in thier back pockets to confirm a real IV car at a show. Ive learned & im sure there are quit a few people HERE that can tell just with whats on the rest of the car. Im currently working on 2 IV cars & there is no better GTO in my mind other than a V, I think if they repopped the Vs id be first in line. I cant afford the real deals there astronomical. As far as everyone building IV cars..... It is the BEST the car could be, but id give PROPS to guy with the real deal over repops. BUT as a IV car owner, it would just kill me if someone with a ton of disposable money buys parts puts them together & now has what weve been killing ourselves to aquire. RARE PARTS & CARS WONT BE RARE ANYMORE. Id love to hear more inputs. The true battle will be at local shows where none knows the damn difference anyway. BUT i know guys that lose with their all original numbers matching JUDGES that lose to Cloned Convertable JUDGES. they shouldnt even be in the same class. I guess im just venting a tad, cause i have 2 sets of real 4s in the need of serious repairs. They werent cheap to buy, & it gonna be cheap to repair. BUT I MUST SAVE THEM. I have another service replacement set that are mint untouched & a NOS set in GM BOXES. This was my retirement 1 day but now it seems i better save more for that rainy day. I do agree the serious BIG guys will pay for the real deals no question, but will there be a guessing game of what we are getting

[Verdoro 68]

I don't attend judged car shows, so I don't share the same concerns. However, I can definitely see where you are coming from. I was also making an assumption that people would be honest - we obviously know that's not true.

As far as the local shows where no one knows the difference, I don't really have a problem with that. When I do go to shows I show my car for the people attending, not for the judges or other club members. Most are excited to see a GTO at all.

While I'm generally not a supporter of clones, I'd have to say that it takes just as much effort - if not more more - to create a restored show winning Judge or RA IV clone as it does to restore a real McCoy. If a clone is done so well that an educated car show judge can't tell the difference, then it deserves an award in my book. I think you'll agree that most aren't.

In general I think you are blowing things out of proportion. It's the same "sky is falling" attitude that we heard when the '69 Camaro bodies came out last year. The bottom hasn't exactly fallen out of the '69 Camaro market. Albeit, it's a bit soon to see if there will be any repercussions. I'm sure the same thing happened when all the Cobra kit cars came out and the '33 Ford became ubiquitous. Real Cobras are still worth a mint. All steel '33 Fords still get a pretty penny.

Bottom line, a legit RA IV car will always be worth way more than a standard GTO with RA IV heads. More than likely when you do sell one of your cars it will go to someone who knows to do their homework and is looking for the real thing. I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as your retirement goes

I am jealous of you folks who own Judges and RA cars. They've always been out of my reach and I've been in this hobby for 15 years. A reproduction RA IV setup would let me at least get a taste of what it's like to own a RA car. Obviously I'd prefer an original, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

[SWEETJUDGE]

Dont cut yourself short.... those cars are still around & being found. Youd be surprised the cars that find me. When i found my JUDGE last year Youd be sick to your stomach, if i told you the story. ALL original every number matches still has the factory exhaust on it..... it was cheap & i think the last score before all hell broke loose on the pricing.
SO not to mislead, my JUDGE is a III car im converting to a IV & Im doing an exact Representation of either the PRE JUDGE, Royal BOBCAT, OR BESWICK SUPERJUDGE with another IV motor.
Maybe im just being tender, i think if these heads were available when i wanted them, Id probably be in that line with the rest of IV wanting peoples.
How about making the Vs & HEMI HEADS?????

[Noel Drach]

Since you asked here my input.I enjoy the Pure Stock Drags that take place in Stanton Mich each fall. The fastest GTO's are the ram air 4's. And i've allways wanted to do one but the parts are out of this world. So with the new release It helps me build a 69 or 70 clone ra4 GTO or Firebird.Did the repo intakes drop the price of the factory one's?

[lockec]

I tallked to a fellow named Jim Hackworth, I believe out of the Knoxville area at the POCI show and also the Pontiacs in Pigeon Forge show first week in June. At that time he said the molds were done and pretty much ready to start casting. I take it he may be the one doing this. If my memory serves me correct, he said something about different date codes being optional, but don't hold me to it. I have mixed feelings as well, over the years my prized Pontiac parts really took a hit value wise and in many cases became less than what I paid for them due to the repops. This is going to keep on happening at even a more accelerated rate. The bottom line is I like to use all original parts and have found they become more obtainable when this happens. The licking I took before is now turning the other way on my present and future projects. Look at the 70 GTO fenders that were bringing well over 1K a couple of years ago, or the 69 endura bumpers not to mention the ram air pans. Now some of the nice originals can be had for half the amount they were bringing, or at least have stabilized the price. All of us that have been doing this for 20+ years have took in in the shorts several times because of repops, but now I am able to afford good GM stuff that I know will fit!! I am in this for the long run and hope they keep on repopping so I can get the good stuff. Just my 2 cents.

[Repoman]

Originally Posted by SWEETJUDGE

Thanks for chiming in, Thats what its here for. I hear ya & im by no means of this elite crowd, Im a broke 35 year old married with kids own my own BIZ & bust my a$$ all day long to make ends meet.

If you're not an elitist, and you're poor, like me; I suggest selling your GTO and building a hot rod. It's more fun, and lighter cars go faster.

I swear I'll never own a 'numbers' car again, unless I chop it up, like I'm doing to my 55 .

[bulletpruf]

If it's Hackworth's stuff, then the heads will have had some slight mods made to the castings to make them flow a bit better. The "GM" logo on the casting will be changed to "CM" so they don't have GM coming after them. No date code.

Do y'all really think this will drop the price on original stuff? The RAIV intakes are being reproduced, but original intakes are still bringing $2500 or so.

Be curious to hear what these heads look like in person.

Scott

[lockec]

I'm sure Jim will be in Louisville especially if he has a set of heads to display. We can get more details there. If they look like the originals with a few minor details changed like the exhaust manifolds, I think it will at least stabilize the price of the originals if the new ones sell for around 2-2.5K loaded. The ram air lV cars will always be the most collectable and most will pay the extra $ for the real stuff, but we have to realize the demand will go down due to several potential buyers going toward the new ones. This would be especially true if there are several more loose sets laying around than there are real lV cars left that don't have them. I hate to see it for those of us that have these rare parts in our inventory going up in value daily, but after a while reality sits in. I do know for a fact sellers like Barry Martin and Ron Johnson will get real picky and will pay less for these parts after repops are announced and proven to fit and function. What do y'all think?

[SWEETJUDGE]

Come to think of it, the repopped exhaust manifolds & intakes REALLY have done NOTHING to the value of the real deals. Theyre still expensive. So maybe this wont IMPACT US as much as i was thinking. I just need to know a sure way to tell the differences. THERE SHOULD BE NO DATE CODES so there has to be another way to tell, & in a way that no one can grind or machine away the tell tale signs of a repop. ID love to see these in person. Hopefully they may upgrade them a bit..... AT least flow as much as a small block chevy. REPOMAN, Im broke due to my addiction of cars & rare parts, I thought drugs were bad, but rare cars & parts, ive got big problems.
69 #s Match JUDGE, 69 Pro street 2600LB. GTO, 69 ALL GLASS GTO, 65 Mustang, 63 Lemans, A/C COBRA KIT CAR............ I get attatched to things & cant let them go. IS THERE REHAB FOR THIS?????????

[lockec]

I don't think the value will go down especially if there are visual differences, I expect they will not appreciate like they have in the last few years, but who knows This is different than 68-70 hoods and a few of the other parts that took a hit. Everybody that has them will probably sit tight and won't dump them, we've all worked too hard to find them and absorb them. The Edelbrocks did nothing to hurt the value it seem's. I'm looking foward to seeing them myself, not to say I'm going to jump on a set. This addiction has got to be worse than drugs and rates up there with sleezy women!!

[Half-Inch Stud]

I swear I'll never own a 'numbers' car again. HIS

['ol Pinion head]

One can bet there will be slight visual differences. Hopefully these new castings will even flow a little better than stock. Seriously doubt, price on top quality original RAIV heads will go down, at least on pieces that aren't waaay overpriced today. Also don't buy into the argument that the Diedinthecorn hoods made super nice original '69-70 hoods go down in price, at least not flawless originals.

Personally like to see 87cc versions of the 197's & 7F6's. Would even buy a set of new 87cc 7F6's. Any price being advertised???

Last, as far as date codes go, original RAIV heads & early 197's did NOT have date codes. Service Replacement 614's, late style 197's, & all 7F6's had external date codes.

[SWEETJUDGE]

I agree.... i think higher compression versions of the 71s & 72s are a great idea. i think the Vs & hemi heads would be the next step.
THERE ARE A FEW sets of high compression 191s out there. I know a racer that had them in houston texas.

I hope flow improves. What about the value of SR heads now.???
& what about the people that class race, & need untouched heads?? WILL they allow these??????

I was wondering about the date codes on the 191s. i have a set with dates & a set without????????
I also have a NOS 68 date coded 722 in the GM BOX...... looking for the other

[dr-doug]

if they don't have 722 or 614 or whatever cast on them, what makes them different than later roundports? the size of the cumbustion chamber would be the only difference, right? You can't see that once they are on. Maybe they are just reproducing roundport heads...
What would be the point of reproducing the RamIV if they couldn't pass for RamIV's? If you guys say it's for the performance, that's B.S. because the alluminum heads are much better.
Also, unless your racing you need combustion chambers that are much larger than original ramIV's(lesser compresion), or dished pistons, gas is horrible anymore and getting worse. See what they need to make is RamIV numbers on 455HO heads or sd heads, then they would appeal to the guy who owns a IV with his original heads, he could swap them out,gain performance on street gas, and protect his originals by setting them on a shelf.

I'm just spitting out more fodder for conversation, my hard drive died over the weekend, when I'm not typing I'm crying, I lost so much info.......Pictures, and people contacts. ..DW

[ponjohn]

I've been following this and I still can not follow the logic in repopping a raiv head?

All of the above concerns are valid BUT why would someone put that kind of many and resources into and "iron" head anyway.

The only way I can see this is if you have a roundport car and dont want to damage your original stuff- then why not buy a KRE highport or e-head?

It simply does not make sense. NOW if the ram air v was repopped that makes sense, even more sense in an al. version.

My.02
john

[SWEETJUDGE]

WELL, i talked to the man himself who is taking on this project. SUPER NICE GUY I MUST STATE, not in it for money.... just another pontiac guy.
Heads a few will be out in 2 weeks. They are gonna test & tune a few sets before they let out to the public. Heads will have CM instead of GM. WE MUST KEEP A CLOSE EYE on this... a little JB weld & you can make it a G.
the only other difference he stated & i NEVER KNEW, but i guess the 722 is slightly different in that the 614 i think has a side boss where the 722 doesnt or vise versa. HEADS WILL BE STOCK in ALL aspects. CHEAP TOO.... i wont disclose just incase. I stated intrest in an aluminum version Paint them engine color like the STREET RACERS & go stealth. He also stated he actually has to completely ruin a head to make the molds. they slice & photogrph like a MRI.
I also stated intrest in doing Vs but due to the destroying factor & they are not cheap, he felt a bigger market with the IVs. 722s are coming first than the 614s...... we'll see where all this lands.

[Silver Judge]

Originally Posted by SWEETJUDGE

Come to think of it, the repopped exhaust manifolds & intakes REALLY have done NOTHING to the value of the real deals. Theyre still expensive. So maybe this wont IMPACT US as much as i was thinking. I just need to know a sure way to tell the differences. THERE SHOULD BE NO DATE CODES so there has to be another way to tell, & in a way that no one can grind or machine away the tell tale signs of a repop. ID love to see these in person. Hopefully they may upgrade them a bit..... AT least flow as much as a small block chevy. REPOMAN, Im broke due to my addiction of cars & rare parts, I thought drugs were bad, but rare cars & parts, ive got big problems.
69 #s Match JUDGE, 69 Pro street 2600LB. GTO, 69 ALL GLASS GTO, 65 Mustang, 63 Lemans, A/C COBRA KIT CAR............ I get attatched to things & cant let them go. IS THERE REHAB FOR THIS?????????

Ummm, SweetJudge, yup, there is a cure.
Send all your stuff out west to me, except for the mustang, LOL