[Thumpin455_GTO]

Starting with WS6 springs, swaybars, and steering box, what have you guys heard of or used for 70-73's. I have a 71 Formula I am considering building a top end/corner carver out of. I have a few ideas of my own, but want to know what you guys think.

[Hawk397]

I've got a coil-over kit on the front of my 71. (See Pic) I'm hoping that it will make a nice difference. Ride Ht and shock valving is adjustable as well. I also just read about Air Ride Technologie's new kit for 2nd gen F bodies - maybe in CarCraft??

Mark

[Wick]

Hawk, what brand of lower arm is that?

[Skip Fix]

1 1/4" front sway bar (on most TAs and Formulas),80s diesel S-10 springs, stock rear springs, rear sway bar 5/8" I think(plain TA not WS6). Bilsteins or Konis. Global's Del a lums as bushings in the A arms, their interlocking subframe bushings. Adjustable proportioning valve in the rear line for brakes, preferably 4 wheel discs. 255x50x16 tires wil fit on 89 GTA wheels which are light and repop'd by Classic.

The new coil overs look pretty neat too. There is also a company making a new front subframe to take all the new Vette hardware.

[Hawk397]

Checkout the link below, these are the control arms and the coil overs are QA-1's.

Mark

http://www.heidts.com/heip40.htm

Originally Posted by Wick

Hawk, what brand of lower arm is that?

[TransAm525]

I'm using the following with stock springs (for now) :

- Herb Adams 1-5/16" chromoly front sway bar with spherical rod end links and Energy Suspension greaseable polyurethane mounts
- Hellwig 1" chromoly rear sway bar with polyurethane bushings
- Energy Suspension polyurethane leaf spring mount pads
- Koni shocks

Modifications in the works:

- Vette Brakes and Products front transverse fiberglass mono spring
- Vette Brakes tubular control arms
- Global West solid Del-a-lum control arm bushings
- Global West offset control arm shafts
- 2" drop spindles
- Moog ball joints
- Fiberglass rear leaf springs (with 2" drop) with Global West Del-a-lum bushings
- Global West subframe connectors
- Pro-Touring solid aluminum body mounts

Future modifications:

- Rear disk brakes
- Rack and pinion steering

[Hawk397]

Is there a rack and pinion kit out there or are you looking to fab up your own.

Thanks,
Mark

Originally Posted by TransAm525

I'm using the following with stock springs (for now) :


- Rear disk brakes
- Rack and pinion steering

[Mr_GTO]

Best handling? Buy a new subframe with Corvette front suspension and rack and pinion. Won't be cheap but it will be the best handling.

[TransAm525]

It's something I will have to fabricate on my own. Who knows, someone might have a kit available by the time I reach the point in the project where I'm ready for the rack and pinion.

[OLDFLM72]

HO Racing springs up front.
HO Racing front and rear sway bars... 33% stiffer than WS6 stuff.
(I think Ken still has them...)
PST Poly-eurathane bushings everywhere.
Koni Red shocks all around.

Rides and handles great with Rally IIs and 235/60/15 fronts
and 275/60/15 rears!

Future mods... (someday)

18x8 fronts 255/40/18s with 4.5"bs
18x10 rears 295/35/18s with 5.5"bs

... and big 13"/12" discs all around.

I'd start another thread and ask Ken Crocie to chime in!

V/R,
Ty

[bobzdar]

You have to consider what handling characteristics you're after. If you stiffen up one end of the car disporportionately to the other, you will change the handling balance, possibly adversely. Stock, non-ws6 cars had mild understeer, ws6 were pretty neutral with very slight understeer. If you significantly stiffen the front without worrying about the rear (like most solutions offered here suggest), you'll step into moderate to heavy understeer. If that is what you like or you don't plan to really push the car to the limits where you'd have to worry about that, then go for it. If not and you're worried about the car actually being fast on a road course, I'd suggest a bit stiffer front spring (cut a/c springs will lower and stiffen it if you're after both, and will probably be sufficient if the front is lightened at all) with the stock front bar and polygraphite bushings and possibly solid body/core support bushings, good shocks (adjustable if you want to tune it) and then concentrate on stiffening the rear up. The solid or del-alum rear spring bushings, ws6 rear springs minimum with a larger rear bar (I went 1") should bring the balance to neutral if not give a slight amount of oversteer (which is what I personally prefer). I would also go with sfc's regardless of what you do.

You may want to consider going with rubber bushings in the front of the rear springs and solid in the rear to reduce ride harshness, but if you're going solid body bushings all the way around it won't matter much anyway.

I think the only thing the vette front suspension would do is provide the better rack and pinion steering, other than that there's nothing special in it besides perhaps some lighter components (which could easily and much more cheaply be put on the stock suspension) and perhaps reduced deflection. If the geometry is the same, it won't really improve the handling, and the 2nd gens had pretty good front end geometry as they were.

[Thumpin455_GTO]

Im building a top end car, like open road race type ie Sandhills Open in Nebraska, and Silver State in Nevada, if they still have it in Nevada. It could possibly see some open track time, be street legal but comfort isnt the main concern. Its not my daily driver by any means. The 98 Formula works good for that.

I want to dial in alot of caster, 3 degrees or more, and have neutral balance, or close to it, maybe a small amount of understeer. Stiffness doesnt matter, its not a daily driver and I would put up with alot when driving it. It will get all sold subframe mounts, connectors, and a 10pt cage at the least. Its gotta be able to turn at high speed and low speed, run as fast as I can get it and hold together at that speed. The brakes will be upgraded from the stock 4 wheel disc, but it will still be a manual MC, no power due to the engine its getting. 17" wheels are the largest I want to run.

It will get some aero mods, butnothing really really out there. Simple things like removed outside mirrors, partial belly pan, etc. I know the grille will catch alot of air. A 79-81 would be a better front end, but I like the 71 I have. It will be lightend considerably, no heater, no radio, and the only power option will be steering because I want to keep the WS6 box, or get a later G body box with constant 12:1.

From there its pretty much wide open, and while I can buy alot of parts for it, I have a large cache of extras I am building it from.

Kens ideas would be most welcome on this.
Since I been toyin with the idea of a blow through system, the front end will be lightened as much as I can to offset the weight of the blower. Still undecided on what stroke to run, I have a choice of 400, 4.21" stroked 400 block, and if I can find a 4" crank I could run a 428-440, and of course a 474 from an "experienced" 455 block I have. Power is another thread, here I wanted to get some ideas for making it turn even better than my other WS6 cars, brain matter oozing past my ears type cornering.

[Bigger is Better]

Sounds like an interesting project! So you plan on running one of those open road events?

One of the things you will need to consider is how your high speed handling is going to be which involves the aero. Second gens as most american cars that vintage have a lot of high speed front end lift. I think Herb Adams use to say about 200lbs of lift at 100Mph. This has to do with all that air that goes under the car and through the front end and then under the car.

You could also be producing some rear down force with the factory spoiler so that will create alot of high speed understeer which will not install a lot of confidence. You want to have some high speed understeer since that is a lot safer than high speed oversteer but without some aero mods you will have to much.

I think the safe bet would be to set up the car for a little mechanical understeer for the low speed corners and tune the aero around that for the high speed corners.

When I hillclimb my car and I made a splitter for the front end and run a rear spolier extension. This works well for me and most the pony cars at those events are doing some thing along that line. The speeds are a little over 100Mph and corners at 70Mph so you might be at higher speeds.

I recommend this book: Competition Car Downforce by Simon McBeath, ISBN 1859606628. This is a great book with lots of real world ideas.

[HWYSTR455]

I agree on the aero comments, and just like that '68 Charger at Silver State, you can make grill inserts for the '71 to improve high-speed aero. You can 'prep' the car for the particular event, even go as far as duct taping body panel seams, pillar mouldings, etc, and remove for lower speed events, or the saturday night cruise. I also agree with the comments about over & understeer, to a degree. A better driver can compensate enough to use either to his/her advantage, so to a point, it's preference. I've heard conflicting info on running a rear sway bar too, and this time around I'm going to try without, can always add it back later. I've set my car up differently over the years, and tried both the stiff spring/small bars, soft spring/big bars, and stiff springs/big bars, and I've always been able to compensate for the characteristics of that particular setup. I kind of lean towards the softer spring in general, only because of how much time I spend on the street, and tracking across bumps is important. Ever hit a wash-board at speed and tried to turn or brake hard? Get the picture then. This time around I'm using all the tubular GW arms with del-a-lums, have the original VSE firewall braces & structure kit, using the 'comp' springs from GW, 1.25 front bar, no rear, and konis. I've seen deflection in the lower control arms, and am hoping the GWs will improve that. Also went to big brakes & 18s, so I'm curious how this setup will work, and how I'll be tuning it. Promise to keep all updated...

[OLDFLM72]

Found these old concept drawings a while ago... might help?

HWYSTR455 would like to see and hear more about your car!
What brakes did you go with? I want to step up to 18s and 13/12" discs someday when I can afford it! LOL

You can email pics to ty.ingle@offutt.af.mil

V/R,
Ty

[HWYSTR455]

Cool drawings Ty! Ah, my car, you mean the endless money pit!?! Heh-heh! Still under construction, but am hoping to have it out this spring, mid summer lastest. It's a '71, as you know, and did Baer GT+ on the front (13s), and the rear kit, which I think they changed the name of, but it's 12s with the PBRs. Got a new tko-600 5-speed, 9" rear, and 3.25 gears. IA2 block, crower stroker 4.25 crank, e-heads, efi, and a D1 procharger, intercooled. Don't have many good pics, but here's one when I was fitting the tires, which for now are 285 rear, 265 front. Pretty sure I can squeeze 295s in the rear, maybe 315s, would have to see after the car's on the ground with full load. Think 275s will work up front, have to see. I'll post more pics when i do more to it, been a little lazy lately!

[pontiholic]

I was told that a 79-81 ws6 box will not fit in a78 or older TA. I have a 76TA that I would also like to make into a G-Machine

[speedshopmike]

pontiholic, not true - fittings are different, easily adapted.
hwy455, you're close enough i'm gonna come steal yer goodies off you one dark night.
you ever get up to rockville?
i'm considering having a little PY local guy get-together at my shop this spring...

[Thumpin455_GTO]

Aero mods will consist of a few tricks I have used on my 79s. I will make a concerted effort to keep the air from under the car, also to allow plenty of escape routes from under the hood.
Chin spoiler on the front possibly with TA wheel spats. Something stiffer than a stock one and adjustable for ride height.
Already have lexan grille covers, thinking about making another set that is bubble shaped instead of flat. Easier to push a ball than a barn door. Cooling will come from under the bumper, like the 79-81. Headlight covers as well.
The hood will be modified so air can escape past the windshield. A bit more involved than removing the weather strip that is there, but same principle.
It will have wheelwells and wheels/tires that fill the wells to keep air out.
A bit of a rake, front lower than rear, but not a stinkbug stance. A half inch to inch difference.
It will be as low as possible and employ a partial belly pan possibly with some ducting/tunnels to provide a bit of downforce at speed. Not so much it blows the tires, but enough to equal the lift for a neutral balance. Lots of testing involved with this idea.
Smooth the entire car, flush mounted windows would be nice, I will see what I can do with that idea. No outside mirrors, just one big one inside. Might shave doorhandles or swap to something more modern. Still undecided on that because the body work is done on the doors already. It would be another 10 hours or so to shave them.
I want it light, but not feather light. It wont have alot of extras, certainly not AC or a radio. Too light and stability becomes a problem again.

So far tubular a-arms, 4 whl disc(not sure of size or manufacture),both swaybars, WS6 box, 17" wheels most likely in a 255 40, possibly wider in rear. 285s from my 4th gen WS6 wheels seem to fit ok.

Taking everything you guys are saying into account, and not discounting anything. Should take me another year or so to get it done. Gotta sell a Mustang I an restoring to finance this. Maybe I should be out working on it instead of typing in here...

Thanks for the input guys! Keep it coming!

[speedshopmike]

i dont think you're gonna get enough weight out to affect stability much.
make an extra belly pan...i'd be interested in not making it myself and spending a bit o fmoney instead.
i'm way interested in getting the windows to flush; this has bugged teh piss outta me since my first ;73 back in 1987.
thanks
mike