[noob_goat]

I have a '69 GTO with a naturally aspirated 400. I'm working it up into a good quarter-mile runner. After swearing at my carb while doing some "tuning", my buddy (who is vastly more experienced than I when it comes to engines) suggested that I tear off the carb and toss it into the ocean. In it's stead, he suggested I get an EFI setup, something similar to a Holley StealthRam MPFI. I was wondering if anyone here had ever done such a conversion or had any thoughts on it? If so, please share -- I'd like to at least get a second opinion before I drop $3k.

[noob_goat]

I have a '69 GTO with a naturally aspirated 400. I'm working it up into a good quarter-mile runner. After swearing at my carb while doing some "tuning", my buddy (who is vastly more experienced than I when it comes to engines) suggested that I tear off the carb and toss it into the ocean. In it's stead, he suggested I get an EFI setup, something similar to a Holley StealthRam MPFI. I was wondering if anyone here had ever done such a conversion or had any thoughts on it? If so, please share -- I'd like to at least get a second opinion before I drop $3k.

[Cliff R]

Have the stock carb correctly rebuilt. I just did some DIRECT back to back testing at the track between a well prepared Holley 850 and my q-jet....dead even on ET and MPH. EFI costs a fortune and just adds another big bunch of electronics to leave you walking at the worst possible time...just my 02.....Cliff

[ontheblocks]

EFI is a neato idea, but if you are building up to a good 1/4 mile runner, keep it simple as long as possible. When technology become the limiting factor in your time slips, then start spending the big bucks.

If it has ti*s or tires, it's gonna cost ya!

[PMDRACER]

EFI will not turn a car into a blazing terror all by itself. If you have the carb set correctly, your E.T.s may not change at all, just as the case spoken above.
What EFI will do however, is improve driveability, mileage, and the ever-important ooh-ahh factor.
The driveability and mileage gains come from EFI's ability to tune to the motor's needs, through the sensors. A carb has to react to a motor's wishes through vacuum signal.
Take a 400/455 with a lumpy cam, etc. They usually do not idle or part throttle well due to the lack of a good vacuum signal. The EFI will calm that beast down just like it has a factory cam.
Of course I'm being a bit basic, but you get the point.

To give you an idea, Jack took the black EFI car to a car show in San Diego from Walnut and averaged over 27 MPG for the trip. Months later, we averaged over 150 MPH at the Silver State Classic and for the 90 mile course we got just under 20 MPG.

TIGER EFI - Electronic Fuel Injection for the Traditional Pontiac Engine. bill@tigerefi.com

The point to life isn't necessarilly the decimal.

[This message was edited by PMDRACER on September 30, 2003 at 12:24 AM.]

[78 GHOST]

Umm, yeah and your EFI car (on a scale from 1-10) is about a 27 in techno-gadgetry. I think you guys are a good example of where you CAN go, but the tuning and effort to make the car drivable (especially part-throttle) is probably much more involved than dialing in a comparable carb.

Please don't think I'm knocking your EFI efforts, on the other hand, I'm just saying they aren't for beginners. EFI is substantially more $, more time in tuning (if on a laptop, if not under the air cleaner), and initially questionable reliability.

For $350-400, Cliff can have you smiling with your carb.

The only reason (note I didn't say practical) to go EFI is to simply "Hot Rod." If you like fooling with your car, like fooling with the technology, and like to be different and have an efficient beast at the other end of a long development pipeling, EFI is for you.

Personally, when $ gets a little easier to come by, this will be one of my projects.

No offense, but your buddy is blowing smoke when he says EFI is easier. Either way, there is a learning curve.
____________________________________
Much love out to my Peeps

[Cliff R]

I've sat back and watched one of my good friends throw THOUSANDS of dollars into an EFI set-up for his 89 Camaro. The engine, trans and rear were gears were done here. It runs mid-12's at 108-110mph. The 355 SBC uses a tuned port set-up (aftermarket) with big injectors, aftermarket fuel pump, computer modifications and on board laptop to control all of it. It still gives the owner FITS on occassion in the cold run mode but runs fine once warmed up. Mileage is good, and it flat ROCKS at the track. However, we run just as quick with similiar engines in similiar weight cars with traditional intakes and carbs for about $3000 less......Cliff

[PMDRACER]

If I'm reading your post right, you're commenting on our data collection equipment and calling it "techno-gadgetry". Well, be that it may, that equipment has NOTHING to do with the setup or running of the EFI. It's merely for as I said, data collection when we do the SSCC events. Other that that, it's for kicks and giggles.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> tuning and effort to make the car drivable (especially part-throttle) is probably much more involved than dialing in a comparable carb. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My question to you is, (and not a knock, just a query), have you ever seen or helped setup an EFI fuel table? What gives folks fits is not understanding the tables, what they do, and just plain do not pay attention to what the sensors are telling them. Before you even try to tune a car with a laptop, it is imperative to know what adjusts what. No different than a carb. With a carb, if the car falls on it's face at hi RPM, you gotta know what to adjust. Jetting - not idle mixture - right? Same as an EFI setup. With EFI, you have a base fuel map. The foundation if you will. Basically, the base map is for idle and cruising. You have a map for acceleration fuel, decay, ramping, etc. Just like setting up the acceleration pump shot with squirters and pump cams. You have maps for extra fuel when the motor is cold, much like what a choke does on a carb. You have ignition maps, just like setting the curve in a distributor. Get it? Bottom line - All you need to know is what graph affects what, and you've got it made. How do you learn it? Ask here. I'd be glad to help. And so are others. Besides that, there are guys like Craig Railsback at BDS that can not only help, but can put the car on his dyno and tune it right then and there. This argument about "EFI learning curve" is getting old and tired. Not to mention a bunch of crap. I'm no brain surgeon, and I figured it out.

Someone mentioned cold starts. Yeah, can give you a headache, since you really have a short time span to get it tuned every day under warmup, but how many people have the same fits with a carb and just pass it off with "Oh, she's just cold-blooded. She'll be fine when she warms up." Just need to change a few numbers in the warmup tables.

I'll give you that EFI is not for the light in the wallet. But that's not the point to the original post is it? We all know it costs $$$. Nobody needs to bring it up. The original post asked about the virtues of EFI vs carbs.

TIGER EFI - Electronic Fuel Injection for the Traditional Pontiac Engine. bill@tigerefi.com

The point to life isn't necessarilly the decimal.

[455Turbo]

I have a FAST fuel injection system on my twin turbo 455. If I didn't have the turbos I'd be using a carb. They're way cheaper, work well, and are simple to tune. The EFI hasn't been difficult to tune but it takes a lot more than a pile of jets and a screwdriver. A carb will go just as fast and get just about the same fuel mileage.

[noob_goat]

Sorry to neglect this for a while and then start it up again -- I was away on biz.

A few things I should have mentioned:

(1) I've got a pretty lumpy cam in the car (236/243 @.050 x 520/540). It's generally not the slightest bit happy when cold, but I'm in the habit of idling the car for a few minutes when I start anyway. I've been told that EFI would better handle the cold starts, to the extent that I'd at least be able to turn the key and then let the car idle on its own instead of having to yank at the choke and hold the gas down and swear a lot.

(2) I'm planning to do some variety of forced induction. I've been told that the EFI rigs are generally easier to do this with than carbs.

(3) I have the cash set aside for this project, so the money (within reason, of course) isn't an issue. I (obviously) don't care about matching numbers or fuel economy. All I'm really interested in is achieving some degree of reliability and a good bit of power.