[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A guy I work with Kevin Byrd did a LS3 swap on a vehicle, turned out exceptional (as I knew it would) BUT Kevin swapped the LS3 into a BMW that the Transporter would be proud to drive. I will always brag up the build on that car (as he made it BETTER).

LS swaps in GM vehicles are for people who know their basic Tempest/LeMans will never draw any BIG BUCKS, they like the challenge, and they want 2010+ Technology.
(Suspension, Brakes, Tires, Engine[EFI], 6 speeds, etc............................................)

Just saying

Tom V.

IF someone gave me a REPOP 67 FASTBACK Mustang shell, I would drop a Coyote (modern) engine in the thing in a heartbeat. AND NO FORD GUY WOULD GIVE ME CHIT ABOUT IT, NOT LIKE THIS CAMP.

Because you're still using a Ford engine, NOT a Chevy engine! I'm sure if you were to swap in an LS engine, or a late model Hemi, they would give you Chit!

Pontiac's should have Pontiac engines in them, IMHO.

[GOAT WHORE]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Because you're still using a Ford engine, NOT a Chevy engine! I'm sure if you were to swap in an LS engine, or a late model Hemi, they would give you Chit!

Pontiac's should have Pontiac engines in them, IMHO.

X1000!

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

I'd like to hear from Cliff and Jim Hand. Their stuff may not have that many miles, but seem dead straight reliable.

Car Craft built a 4.8 Chevy pickup take out engine, here a year ago or so. They said they thought it was a 5.3 to start with, I wonder about that, though. They got like 1600 HP out of it, couldn't blow the beech up, regardless of what they did to it. Supposedly all they did to it was perform a couple minor mod's and open up the ring gaps.

I'm not a fan of LS "Mania" either, that much, BUT it makes me laugh, it's like 1955 all over again! when every Hot Rodder "Had" to have a Chevy engine! A recent Hot Rod magazine feature car was a 1970 Dodge Challenger, w/ a LS engine! Cracked me up, it really gets the mopar fanatic's blood to boiling, Awesome!

That thing got a hemi in it? Well, Sir, I stooped low enough to build a mopar, who needs a hemi???

My hat is off to the original 75 engineers that created the small block Chevy in just 2 years!

There's enough legitimate "good" engine builders around to not need a LS engine in a classic Pontiac, my opinion.

Doesn't really matter what anyone does, to me, it's still a free country!!!

Tom V. the coyote engine seems like a good one, I'll still wait to see though that triton engine wasn't a better idea...

You mean like the 4 threads that TRY to hold the spark plugs in, but don't, as they tend to blow the spark plug out in service?

Or the intake cams on the 4 valve heads that seize up when you run it 1 1/2 quarts low on oil, because they are the last thing to get oil?

Or the protruding boss around the spark plug that always burns away when detonation is experienced?

Remember, engineers do things for a reason!

Seriously though, all engines have their little quirks, but overall, the Triton engine is a pretty decent engine. The Coyote seems like it will be a nice little engine. We are currently building a twin turbo one for 1300 HP. Not a bad foundation to start with.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Pontiac's should have Pontiac engines in them, IMHO.

I would agree,however,i like chevy bodies and Big blocks,but would not have a problem installing a Pontiac engine.

[Tom Vaught]

RAV-Z has a Z-28 with a Pontiac Engine going into it again.

I have seen a few corvettes from the early 60s that had a engine swap from a SB Chevy to a 421 SD. The 421 SD being the "Gorilla" at the time.

Tom V.

[gtofreek]

An old customer of mine told me that back in the early 60's, he had a 55 Chevy with a 265 in it that he drag raced. A friend of his told him, "the only thing you're going to beat with that is another Chevy. If you want to go faster, put a Pontiac 389 in it". He did, and said he started running 11's with it!

[Nicks67GTO]

So here is what i'm looking for....

-Reliable: I do not want to be having to pull the engine I choose down all the time. I don't mind spending extra for rock solid parts, I don't mind a little wrenching and I know what i'm doing but iv'e had a finnicky engine before and it sucks. I also don't have time to be yanking an engine out all the time to take care of issues. I just don't. I understand any type of engine like this can have issues but I don't want constant issues.

-Streetable: I want something that I can stick my wife and kids in and not have to worry about failure or other issues. The engine also has to pull enough vacuum for power brakes and run AC and PS accessories without issues. I also don't want overheating issues in bumper to bumper or slow cruise situations.

-Reasonable mileage: I have no delusions about making 28 MPG on the interstate with a big Pontiac, even with my 5 speed, tall tires, efi etc. However I don't want to be stuck with something that's getting 8MPG on the interstate either.

That said I really want to build a Pontiac. I'm already set up with headers, exhaust, scatter shield, clutch, linkage, radiator, pulleys, wiring etc so it's a drop in deal. I also think it has a lot more cool factor than the LS stuff. That said the LS has proven itself to be able to make great power, reliability, and MPG pretty easily.

[Skip Fix]

One of my old street racing buddies in the 70s put a 455 in a 65 Chevelle. Also preferred a 3 speed stick over a 4 speed-back then few folks raced autos.

He was kind of a crazy guy would "lighten" a car by pulling out about half the front sheet metal bolts. Exploded a clutch in his '65 GTO "Purple Haze". Looked like an Uzi got the firewall,floorboard and hood. and his foot.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

You mean like the 4 threads that TRY to hold the spark plugs in, but don't, as they tend to blow the spark plug out in service?

Or the intake cams on the 4 valve heads that seize up when you run it 1 1/2 quarts low on oil, because they are the last thing to get oil?

Or the protruding boss around the spark plug that always burns away when detonation is experienced?

Remember, engineers do things for a reason!

Seriously though, all engines have their little quirks, but overall, the Triton engine is a pretty decent engine. The Coyote seems like it will be a nice little engine. We are currently building a twin turbo one for 1300 HP. Not a bad foundation to start with.

You didn't mention the cluster you have to go through and the tools you need to buy WHEN a plug is stripped!!! Talk about a monkey having sex w/ a basketball!!!

One of my fellow Pontiac enthusiasts ended up w/ a Mustang w/ a 4.6 in it. He's now retired, but holds an electrical engineering degree, a sharp cookie beyond most....He was having a recall performed on this mustang one day. He asked the service writer which mechanic was the best of the bunch, and if he could go into the shop and ask him a couple of questions, well of course... He asked the mech about the procedure to repair the stripped threads. He basically told him, we drill the hole to the helicoil size and install the helicoil....He asked the mech about the shavings falling into the cylinder??? Well we blow out what comes out, and hope for the best, seldom needing to remove the head(s)....................hope for the best?, now there's a better idea!!!

[i82much]

Let's take gas mileage for a minute and do a little analysis. Say you drive 10,000 miles per year. That is a very aggressive figure for any project car, I'd venture to say less than 5% of cars over 30 years old get driven that much. Let's assume you would get 20 mpg driving an LS and 15 MPG driving a Pontiac. I think those numbers unrealistically favor the LS, but just for the sake of illustrating the point:

10,000 miles at 20 MPG = 500 gallons, $1500 at $3 per gallon.
10,000 miles at 15 MPG = 667 gallons, $2000 at $3 per gallon.

At most you are going to save 500 bucks on gas per year driving an LS over an old Pontiac. Considering what most of us have in our cars, I don't know why that would even be a consideration.

Also, I seriously doubt you would see a 5 MPG difference if you built two cars identically, one with a Pontiac stroker and the other with an LS, both naturally aspirated and making 550 horsepower. Like I said earlier, my Wrangler unlimited gets 15 mpg highway at 70 mpg in the cold because the aerodynamics are so bad, and my GTO has seen 13 mpg driving at 50 mph with a big Holley running on the rich side.

In something with the aerodynamics of an old Pontiac, I'd say you could drive 5 mph slower with a Pontiac engine and you'd make back however much gas money you'd have saved driving an LS.

So if you want an LS because you want an LS, put an LS in your car. If you want a Pontiac but are considering an LS to save gas money, put a Pontiac in it.

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by i82much

Let's take gas mileage for a minute and do a little analysis. Say you drive 10,000 miles per year. That is a very aggressive figure for any project car, I'd venture to say less than 5% of cars over 30 years old get driven that much. Let's assume you would get 20 mpg driving an LS and 15 MPG driving a Pontiac. I think those numbers unrealistically favor the LS, but just for the sake of illustrating the point:

10,000 miles at 20 MPG = 500 gallons, $1500 at $3 per gallon.
10,000 miles at 15 MPG = 667 gallons, $2000 at $3 per gallon.

At most you are going to save 500 bucks on gas per year driving an LS over an old Pontiac. Considering what most of us have in our cars, I don't know why that would even be a consideration.

Also, I seriously doubt you would see a 5 MPG difference if you built two cars identically, one with a Pontiac stroker and the other with an LS, both naturally aspirated and making 550 horsepower. Like I said earlier, my Wrangler unlimited gets 15 mpg highway at 70 mpg in the cold because the aerodynamics are so bad, and my GTO has seen 13 mpg driving at 50 mph with a big Holley running on the rich side.

In something with the aerodynamics of an old Pontiac, I'd say you could drive 5 mph slower with a Pontiac engine and you'd make back however much gas money you'd have saved driving an LS.

So if you want an LS because you want an LS, put an LS in your car. If you want a Pontiac but are considering an LS to save gas money, put a Pontiac in it.

I do want a Pontiac in there but only if its going to be reliable. That's the big plus for the LS engines.

From everything I gather, the 4.25" stroke engines are capable of mid teens on the highway. Some claim to have gotten 20+ before but I wont bank on that. With my 5 speed and 28.4" rear tires i'm rolling about 2300 RPM@ 70MPH in 5th. I'm not overly hung up on gas mileage as long as mid teens are a reasonable expectation on the interstate. I do not want an 8mpg gas hog for long drives. I will probably drive an honest 3-4K miles a year.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

I do want a Pontiac in there but only if its going to be reliable. That's the big plus for the LS engines.

From everything I gather, the 4.25" stroke engines are capable of mid teens on the highway. Some claim to have gotten 20+ before but I wont bank on that. With my 5 speed and 28.4" rear tires i'm rolling about 2300 RPM@ 70MPH in 5th. I'm not overly hung up on gas mileage as long as mid teens are a reasonable expectation on the interstate. I do not want an 8mpg gas hog for long drives. I will probably drive an honest 3-4K miles a year.

What makes you think an LS engine is going to be so much more reliable than a Pontiac? You are not going to the lot to buy a new GM car, you are giving up that level of OEM engineering and instead putting together a mix of factory and aftermarket components either way. In that situation, the reliability is far more a function of whoever works on the car than it is the name brand or vintage of the engine.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

I do want a Pontiac in there but only if its going to be reliable. That's the big plus for the LS engines.

Hasn't your current 455 been reliable?

[J.C.you]

the kind of restro mod build the op stated is pretty much what I am doing with a 525 cube aluminum IA II, a set of Lynns v heads, and 6speed tranny. Looking at a dependable 700-750 hp power level with A/C and be able to drive anywhere in comfort if wanted.

I tend to be realistic on how much I will drive this car tho. A daily driver? 50,000- 100,000 miles? Not going to happen. I will be doing that in a big dually or touring type van...something with elbow room.

[Gator67]

I have a friend here with a 66 GTO who has more or less the same reliability goals as you and decided to go Pontiac--aluminum IAII, 505ci, mild cam, fuel injection. It made just under 600hp on the dyno. It's in the car and almost ready to fire up. I'll let you know how things turn out.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

To preface, I'm not here to start a pissing match on what engine is better. A thread on a different board has me wondering something......

Is it possible to build a 5-600hp Stroker Pontiac that has the reliability of a modern LS? I'm talking no oil leaks, fuel injected and dead nuts reliable? Can anyone here say they have a stroker Pontiac that they have had 0 issues with? I'm talking 10-20,000+ miles doing nothing but maybe setting valves and changing oil. Nothing else. No real issues. Just rock solid reliability at that power level. It starts every time and you could drive it 1,000 miles at the drop of a hat?

If that's you, post it up and brag. I want to hear about it. I have a huge decision to make in the next year or so and I want to see some real world feedback.

Yep, our 69GP makes over 500hp, tows our GTO to and from the track and we race it as well. Been running for about 10yrs.

[GOAT WHORE]

I have a 462 in my 70 GTO. Rotating assembly was used out of an engine I bought in a package deal. Cast crank, H beam rods and Ross pistons. Had the machine work done and built myself. Edelbrock D ports and old faithful roller cam with comp hydraulic lifters. 500+ho/600tq.
I have about 16,000 miles over the last 3yrs and the only issue I have had is at high elevation in heat the fuel will percolate in the carb bowls. Believe I am going to cure it soon by going with intank electric pump (been doing research). Well, my engine does leak but I know that's my fault, hope to get it right on my next build.
Also have 5spd and get around 18 mph hwy.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by GOAT WHORE

I have a 462 in my 70 GTO. Rotating assembly was used out of an engine I bought in a package deal. Cast crank, H beam rods and Ross pistons. Had the machine work done and built myself. Edelbrock D ports and old faithful roller cam with comp hydraulic lifters. 500+ho/600tq.
I have about 16,000 miles over the last 3yrs and the only issue I have had is at high elevation in heat the fuel will percolate in the carb bowls. Believe I am going to cure it soon by going with intank electric pump (been doing research). Well, my engine does leak but I know that's my fault, hope to get it right on my next build.
Also have 5spd and get around 18 mph hwy.

Normally when an engine leaks it IS the builders fault. What makes you special is you admitted it!

[rtanner]

Originally Posted by i82much

Let's take gas mileage for a minute and do a little analysis. Say you drive 10,000 miles per year. That is a very aggressive figure for any project car, I'd venture to say less than 5% of cars over 30 years old get driven that much. Let's assume you would get 20 mpg driving an LS and 15 MPG driving a Pontiac. I think those numbers unrealistically favor the LS, but just for the sake of illustrating the point:

10,000 miles at 20 MPG = 500 gallons, $1500 at $3 per gallon.
10,000 miles at 15 MPG = 667 gallons, $2000 at $3 per gallon.

At most you are going to save 500 bucks on gas per year driving an LS over an old Pontiac. Considering what most of us have in our cars, I don't know why that would even be a consideration.

Also, I seriously doubt you would see a 5 MPG difference if you built two cars identically, one with a Pontiac stroker and the other with an LS, both naturally aspirated and making 550 horsepower. Like I said earlier, my Wrangler unlimited gets 15 mpg highway at 70 mpg in the cold because the aerodynamics are so bad, and my GTO has seen 13 mpg driving at 50 mph with a big Holley running on the rich side.

In something with the aerodynamics of an old Pontiac, I'd say you could drive 5 mph slower with a Pontiac engine and you'd make back however much gas money you'd have saved driving an LS.

So if you want an LS because you want an LS, put an LS in your car. If you want a Pontiac but are considering an LS to save gas money, put a Pontiac in it.

NO body wants look at it like this, this is what ive been saying for along time, if i did not have a motor at all, and had a pontiac i would seriously consider going ls and have a project just like that now, but my 69 bird that im putting back on the street is staying big cube pontiac powered w a 2.73 gear and wide ratio 4 speed and spread bore carb, il put however gas in it takes to go where i want to go and come back. ive got a 11 sec fox body street car, 4.10s aod, i love it its great, ive got a mint 86 gt i bought no motor no trans, its getting the 6.0 ls w a ford toploader and 3.73s, thats the best bang for the buck w it, im just saying gas is getting cheap lets burn some!!

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

From a technology standpoint I dont think there is an argument. the LS motors have an extra 40 years of development. They are better engines. End of discussion.

It just comes down to cool factor and respect for history. There are a finite amount of these old pontiacs. The number can only drop. Each of us own our own cars and its mostly a free country so I respect peoples right to do with them as they please. But I like to see people at least not do things that are irreversable.

A 500 hp modern crate motor just doesnt impress me. But bombing around daily in a well build 500 hp 461? Thats cool.

Well I agree, swapping in an LS engine is not irreversible.

And coolness is a personal opinion. It takes some thinking and engineering to make an LS run in an old car, so that to me is way cool. If it were me I'd have no issue building an LS and dropping it in my car, but I like the engine that I have now so its staying. Plus I like how it looks original.

That being said. I'm sure someone somewhere built a poncho that puts down massive power and is dead on reliable.