[MH 1964]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Mark,
Did you ever finish your '64 GTO salmon colored one?

I had too many gtos so a couple years ago I sold 4 gtos and that 64 was sold. Sorry to say along with a 67 HO car I have had since 1985. Cannot keep them all!

[rad400]

Eric Keith do you think that if somethings had not changed in GM like racing Pontiac would have kept their engines and would would not be so far behind so to speak and far as aftermarket parts. Now I do know thing are now availible but it took so long.

[rad400]

That man should have be shot. Saw your post to my question Eric.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by rad400

Eric Keith do you think that if somethings had not changed in GM like racing Pontiac would have kept their engines and would would not be so far behind so to speak and far as aftermarket parts. Now I do know thing are now availible but it took so long.

It was because of PMD's rich racing connections and finding ways to get around the GM's Corp. "rules" that engineers interested in high performce flocked to PMD.

I truely beleive PMD engineers would have found a way to keep the costs down and have their engines continue in production.

Lets start with when Jim Mcdonald, who later became President of GM. Jim took over for Delorean. He really didn't understand the performance image of the brand. He was told by Corp Accounting that your entry level Catalina was a couple of dollars more than the cheapest Oldsmobile. You have to get it down. Jim asked the advice of his Product Development man, Ben Harrison what they should do. Mcdonald wanted to start puting 350 cids into the Big cars to save cost. Delorean always felt the big cars should never have anything less than a 400 to mantain their performance image.

Ben had the weekend to think it over. He contacted the suppiers and crunched the numbers. He came up with offering a 3 spd in the big cars which saved more money then stepping down from a 400 to a 350. When he got into the office he fired off a memo to McDonald. It was too late. Ben met with McDonald and gave him the cost breakdown and saving. Ben said just send them a new memo. McDonald's response was, if I did that then Corp. would beleive I did not think it through well enough.

As Ben says, he most have known better. He became President of the corp. This began the long run of PMD general managers that did not understand the brand. PMD had have a chance with Bob Stemple, but he was too weak as a President against the accounts who now ran GM.

You also had Tom Goad head of Trans Am development making the 1989 T/A the fastest car out there with his hard work in getting and modifing the Corp (Buick) 3.8 Turbo. making the engine better and the T/A faster then the Buick GN.

Here is a perfect example of the guys behind the scenes at PMD. I just recived this e-mail from a past PMD engineer. It will also give you insight as to how these "GUNG HO" engineers tried to keep PMD out front. By the way Greg wants around $170,000.00 for his T/A.

Hi Eric,

I got your name from David Emerling; Dave and I go way back. We were both engineers at Pontiac Product Engineering starting in the 1970’s and worked on the Fiero program together.



I mentioned to Dave that I will be selling my 455 SD T/A and he suggested that I contact you. I want the car to go to a good home.



I ordered the car in late 1973 and still have the original order form. I took the car apart in 1980 to make it lighter, handle better, accelerate faster and increase the top speed. I basically duplicated the reworks detailed in a letter I sent to Tom Goad (in Product Planning) in 1973 asking Pontiac to build a TransAm that could run with the fastest Ferrari of the day, the Daytona (365 GTB) at one third the cost and have Car & Driver do another Pontiac vs. Ferrari comparison test. I still have this letter. Pontiac didn’t do it so I did. The car has under 13,000 miles; I had company cars at Pontiac and was single so I only drove the SD on nice days in the spring/summer/early fall. I put 5,000 miles on it on a trip to western Montana.



The car has sat for many years and has deteriorated. It needs paint, exterior, exhaust and interior work. Until the last two years it has been stored in my heated garage. I had a local shop work on it to get it running and they left it outside much of the time.



At any rate, the car contains numerous parts built for me in the Engineering machine shop, one of a kind vendor supplied parts, including a rear stabilizer bar I used for tuning the 73-74 TransAm for radial tires (it was never released as my management felt it was too neutral - I was the Chassis Development engineer for the 73-74 TransAm and did the tuning for radial tires: RTS; I kept Herb Adams in the loop as the T/A was Herb’s baby but Herb was running Special Projects by then (code for racing support/development) – Herb was a mentor for me) and a variety of second gen F car upgrades.



I have a three page document describing the enhancements. To achieve a 170 MPH top speed (car has 3.08’s & THM 400 as it is air conditioned) I put in a shorter stroke forged steel Pontiac SD 421 crank (came in a box with “Smokey” written on it), a wilder hydraulic cam, increased compression pistons as well as some unique engine cooling enhancements used on our 455 SD equipped tire test car at the GM Desert Proving Ground (I spent my summers there doing cooling/HVAC work for many years). I also have a complete set of 455 Super Duty blueprints including drawings for the dry sump system; depending on the purchase price, I may/may not include them with the car. I also have original 455 SD graphs from the GM20 dyno runs performed in our engineering test cells.



If you have an interest in this car or know someone who might be interested in purchasing it, please let me know.



Thanks for your time and interest. Please feel free to call (xxx) xxx-xxxx me with any questions.



Best Regards,

Gregg





Gregory E. Peterson – Senior Technical Specialist
LOTUS ENGINEERING, Inc., 35843 Mound Rd., Sterling Heights, Michigan 48310, USA
T (xxx) xxx-xxxx xxxxxx.@lotus-usa.com
M (xxx)xxx-xxxx www.lotuscars.com/engineering

I had to remove Gregg's phone numbers and email.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Here is a perfect example of the guys behind the scenes at PMD. I just recived this e-mail from a past PMD engineer. It will also give you insight as to how these "GUNG HO" engineers tried to keep PMD out front. By the way Greg wants around $170,000.00 for his T/A.

"Hi Eric,

I got your name from David Emerling; Dave and I go way back. We were both engineers at Pontiac Product Engineering starting in the 1970’s and worked on the Fiero program together.

I mentioned to Dave that I will be selling my 455 SD T/A and he suggested that I contact you. I want the car to go to a good home.

I ordered the car in late 1973 and still have the original order form. I took the car apart in 1980 to make it lighter, handle better, accelerate faster and increase the top speed. I basically duplicated the reworks detailed in a letter I sent to Tom Goad (in Product Planning) in 1973 asking Pontiac to build a TransAm that could run with the fastest Ferrari of the day, the Daytona (365 GTB) at one third the cost and have Car & Driver do another Pontiac vs. Ferrari comparison test. I still have this letter. Pontiac didn’t do it so I did. The car has under 13,000 miles; I had company cars at Pontiac and was single so I only drove the SD on nice days in the spring/summer/early fall. I put 5,000 miles on it on a trip to western Montana.

The car has sat for many years and has deteriorated. It needs paint, exterior, exhaust and interior work. Until the last two years it has been stored in my heated garage. I had a local shop work on it to get it running and they left it outside much of the time.

At any rate, the car contains numerous parts built for me in the Engineering machine shop, one of a kind vendor supplied parts, including a rear stabilizer bar I used for tuning the 73-74 TransAm for radial tires (it was never released as my management felt it was too neutral - I was the Chassis Development engineer for the 73-74 TransAm and did the tuning for radial tires: RTS; I kept Herb Adams in the loop as the T/A was Herb’s baby but Herb was running Special Projects by then (code for racing support/development) – Herb was a mentor for me) and a variety of second gen F car upgrades.

I have a three page document describing the enhancements. To achieve a 170 MPH top speed (car has 3.08’s & THM 400 as it is air conditioned) I put in a shorter stroke forged steel Pontiac SD 421 crank (came in a box with “Smokey” written on it), a wilder hydraulic cam, increased compression pistons as well as some unique engine cooling enhancements used on our 455 SD equipped tire test car at the GM Desert Proving Ground (I spent my summers there doing cooling/HVAC work for many years). I also have a complete set of 455 Super Duty blueprints including drawings for the dry sump system; depending on the purchase price, I may/may not include them with the car. I also have original 455 SD graphs from the GM20 dyno runs performed in our engineering test cells."

I love it.

As you say, a perfect example of what went on in Pontiac Engineering, even after the "glory days" had come and gone.

As an aside, the engine that is currently in my GTO has also been on the Pontiac Engineering dyno. Engineering was so pleased with the dyno results that they determined they were going to keep it. As you might guess, Dad was not in agreement. They almost came to blows (he picked up a nearby hammer to emphasize his point) before Dad could get the engine back - and - as a result he was almost late for work that day.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Eric - your hair was a lot darker back then.....you are looking much more "distinguished" these days....



K

[rad400]

Wow that is a bad azz SD T/A. I still wish better people were in charge. Anyone have the keys to the Delorean so I can go back in time and set things right, Eric and Keith you two coming?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by rad400

Wow that is a bad azz SD T/A. I still wish better people were in charge. Anyone have the keys to the Delorean so I can go back in time and set things right, Eric and Keith you two coming?

I'm not sure - doesn't a Delorean only have two seats?

(lol)

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric - your hair was a lot darker back then.....you are looking much more "distinguished" these days....



K

Amazing how quickly the hair turns. From the pictures with Watson and Wangers in 1996. Or with Ace in 1991. To now. What a difference

Heck my hair was a lot longer sans mustache in my 1971 picture standing next to my '57 Vette. Ahhh to be young again.......

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by rad400

Wow that is a bad azz SD T/A. I still wish better people were in charge. Anyone have the keys to the Delorean so I can go back in time and set things right, Eric and Keith you two coming?

Say do you thing we can send the Delorean out to Hess and have them make a stretch out of it?

[Tenney]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SD421
Is this the Red 1964 Car & Driver GTO in the two GTO articles??
Same license plate # for both cars, although the firewall has a "W" on it which the Red car has.


Don
Honestly, I'm not sure but I beleive it is. I know Jim had been able to get a Chevy 4 speed close ratio for the red GTO which was only avalible on the Corvette. The GTO's only had wide ratios at first.

This car also has a console that I never saw in the Red GTO through the years. Maybe Tenney can answer that question. Don't go by the plates. Those would make there way onto many cars.

Sorry.



The red car has p/s and underhood light - neither of which are apparent here. Also, Jim Wangers told me that the red car was built for - and participated in - only the Car and Driver test. It would become his company car thereafter.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Tenney,
Thanks. Interesting how the quote in my box is a "RED" GTO. But the original Quote is "Blue". Must have been in the middle of answering the Question when a change in color occured. LOL

In the two articles you can see all the differnces. Interior Conole, no underhood light switch on cowl and no power steering unit under the hood. Like I said, I never saw a console in the Red GTO.

Eric

[Keith Seymore]

Here are my (rough) notes on the differences between the red car and the blue car -

K

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Red car - power steering, manual brakes, door mounted mirror, power antenna, underhood lamp. Blue car: manual steering, manual antenna, cone hub caps, power brakes, no backup lamps, no mirror; HJ-4471. That would make the engine shot on pg. 30 the Red car since it shows PS & no power brake booster. The top pic on pg. 27 shows the outside mirror, so has to be the Red car.The lower pic same page has the HJ-4471 tag, likely the Blue car. The pic of the tail end on pg. 25, same tag, likely the Blue car. The exterior photos on pgs. 28 & 29 are also almost certainly all of the Blue car (I seem to recall it is reportedly John Jerome's wife in those pix). Blue car = HJ 4471 plate, no outside mirror, manual antenna, manual steering, power brakes, delux hub caps.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Amazing how quickly the hair turns. From the pictures with Watson and Wangers in 1996. Or with Ace in 1991. To now. What a difference

Heck my hair was a lot longer sans mustache in my 1971 picture standing next to my '57 Vette. Ahhh to be young again.......

My wife told me the other day: "...I always knew you'd become a distinguished older gentleman. I just didn't know it would happen so soon..."

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

As an aside, the engine that is currently in my GTO has also been on the Pontiac Engineering dyno. Engineering was so pleased with the dyno results that they determined they were going to keep it. As you might guess, Dad was not in agreement. They almost came to blows (he picked up a nearby hammer to emphasize his point) before Dad could get the engine back - and - as a result he was almost late for work that day.

Originally Posted by Tenney

Also, Jim Wangers told me that the red car was built for - and participated in - only the Car and Driver test. It would become his company car thereafter.

There was - and still is - quite a blending of what constitutes "GM property" and what constitutes "personal property".

On one occasion at the track Jim broke two or three of the factory race cars. After expending all of them he said "...that's ok. I'll drive Van's car."

Dad said no uh uh.

It would be like if I tore up two or three company cars and then said "it's ok, Eric. I'm going to drive your wife's car for a few days".

I'm sure you would have a similar response.

K

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Tenney,
Thanks. Interesting how the quote in my box is a "RED" GTO. But the original Quote is "Blue". Must have been in the middle of answering the Question when a change in color occured. LOL

In the two articles you can see all the differnces. Interior Conole, no underhood light switch on cowl and no power steering unit under the hood. Like I said, I never saw a console in the Red GTO.

Eric

Sorry about that. I went back to change the color of the GTO and then you had already responded. I figured you'd see the reason for my edit.

Don

[rad400]

I think we can make a Dolorean that could fit 3 lol.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

There was - and still is - quite a blending of what constitutes "GM property" and what constitutes "personal property".

On one occasion at the track Jim broke two or three of the factory race cars. After expending all of them he said "...that's ok. I'll drive Van's car."

Dad said no uh uh.

It would be like if I tore up two or three company cars and then said "it's ok, Eric. I'm going to drive your wife's car for a few days".

I'm sure you would have a similar response.

K

Keith,
That almost happened at Norwalk in 1997. We brought down Jim Wanger's '74 Red T/A with Ed Durene driving it. Jim's Pontee with Robert Johnson driving that car and me with a new 1997 Firehawk LT-4 6 speed on loan to Jim from SLP for me to drive.

Ed Dufrene did an exhibition run against the Bag Boy's '63 Tempest "Ms B's" Wagon and left the drive shaft near the end of the track as he ran a 9 second quarter. (I'll post those picture when I get home)

Well, I had just put the drag radials on the Firehawk and was read for my time trials when Ed came storming over and said he was driving. Robert stepped in and said we will have a run off in the Firehawk to see who runs it. I took it first run. Without letting air out of the rear tires I ran a spinning 14.50. I dropped the tire pressure and as I was getting read for another run when Ed jumped into the car and drove to the line. He sat there with smoke pouring from under the car from the clutch. Ed got traction and ran a clutch ridding 14.40. Then Robert jumped in and ran a 14.30. Robert said since he was drivng the Pontee he appointed me to run the Firehawk. Ed then acted like a child and said to me you can't run the car because the clutch was not bad and took the keys.

Jim Wangers asked me why I was not on the track with the car. Told him why. He got the keys from Ed. Then the Firehawk group wouldn't let me run with them. Reason...I was a professional driver for Wangers. Are you kidding me? They finally agreed. I ran time trials with them. Except now I was running a consistant 13.90. When the Firehawk eliminations came up they told the tower to mark my dial-in as 12.00. I had to argue with the starter that my time is clearly marked on my window as 13.99. They wouldn't change it. The guy I ended up running had a reaction time of over 1.3 while I cut a .550 light. I almost caught him at the traps. His dial in was around 14.70.

Needless to say I was a un-invited guest to the Firehawk group. I switched over to the DOT class and made it four rounds before getting the shifter stuck in third gear. The LT4 went home to SLP on a trailer. While Jim's '74 red T/A had to get a new drive shaft. Robert and the Pontee did fairly well making it into the quarter finals.

SLP supplied us with another Firehawk for the following weeks Dream Cruise. But it was a LT1 with an Automatic. With Jim in the car I raced a new '97 Formula WS6 with a 6 speed on Woodward. The WS6 pulled on us even though I got the jump. Jim and I were not impressed by the two Firehawk's performance.

[SD421]

Dr. Schiffer,
Do you have any info on exactly what size engines the 1966 GeeTeeOh race cars had??

389 or 421's??

Thanks,
Don

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Keith,
That almost happened at Norwalk in 1997. We brought down Jim Wanger's '74 Red T/A with Ed Durene driving it. Jim's Pontee with Robert Johnson driving that car and me with a new 1997 Firehawk LT-4 6 speed on loan to Jim from SLP for me to drive.

Ed Dufrene did an exhibition run against the Bag Boy's '63 Tempest "Ms B's" Wagon and left the drive shaft near the end of the track as he ran a 9 second quarter. (I'll post those picture when I get home)

Well, I had just put the drag radials on the Firehawk and was read for my time trials when Ed came storming over and said he was driving. Robert stepped in and said we will have a run off in the Firehawk to see who runs it. I took it first run. Without letting air out of the rear tires I ran a spinning 14.50. I dropped the tire pressure and as I was getting read for another run when Ed jumped into the car and drove to the line. He sat there with smoke pouring from under the car from the clutch. Ed got traction and ran a clutch ridding 14.40. Then Robert jumped in and ran a 14.30. Robert said since he was drivng the Pontee he appointed me to run the Firehawk. Ed then acted like a child and said to me you can't run the car because the clutch was not bad and took the keys.

Jim Wangers asked me why I was not on the track with the car. Told him why. He got the keys from Ed. Then the Firehawk group wouldn't let me run with them. Reason...I was a professional driver for Wangers. Are you kidding me? They finally agreed. I ran time trials with them. Except now I was running a consistant 13.90. When the Firehawk eliminations came up they told the tower to mark my dial-in as 12.00. I had to argue with the starter that my time is clearly marked on my window as 13.99. They wouldn't change it. The guy I ended up running had a reaction time of over 1.3 while I cut a .550 light. I almost caught him at the traps. His dial in was around 14.70.

Needless to say I was a un-invited guest to the Firehawk group. I switched over to the DOT class and made it four rounds before getting the shifter stuck in third gear. The LT4 went home to SLP on a trailer. While Jim's '74 red T/A had to get a new drive shaft. Robert and the Pontee did fairly well making it into the quarter finals.

SLP supplied us with another Firehawk for the following weeks Dream Cruise. But it was a LT1 with an Automatic. With Jim in the car I raced a new '97 Formula WS6 with a 6 speed on Woodward. The WS6 pulled on us even though I got the jump. Jim and I were not impressed by the two Firehawk's performance.

Here are some of the pictures from the 1997 Norwalk Tri-power assult.

Pictured on the trailer at Norwalk, left to right, Jeff Reimus, Ed Dufrene, Eddy Dufrene and Robert Johnson. Jeff is on the Performance years Forum as CammerJeff. You can see in the back ground, Jim Wangers' '74 red T/A, '87 white Pontee, and the hood of the '97 black Firehawk.

Look closely at the picture of Ed loosing his drive shaft and you'll see part of the yoke and u-joint in the smoke that he left behind him. It look like a black dot in his lane.

In case you can't read the Pontee's license plate frame and the side rail of it's black trailer it says: "DON'T WORRY ITS ONLY A PONTIAC"