[GoreMaker]

That's kinda my point, though. All the Pontiac enthusiasts around here didn't have the choice. Every machine shop in the area just doesn't have a torque plate for Pontiacs, so they didn't offer it, and the customers were fine with that. I don't think it's essential, but I think it's worthwhile if you can include it as part of a build. I'm lucky that I'm able to.
I still don't think it's right for any of them to imply that I'm somehow an idiot for wanting to use one, but I sure as hell don't knock their builds just because they didn't.

As for bushing the lifters, screw that crap. This will have to do...

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

This all makes a difference, where is the line drawn? You can put as much into machining a stock block that you could have bought and aftermarket block.

BTW, in my posts I never said that a torque plate wasn't worth power gains, but the owner has to make the decision how far down the rabbit hole he wants to go, because the hole can be very deep. Only the owner knows what he wants the end product to be, and each build has budget/time constraints.

People on the forum can make suggestions, relate past experiences, but the owner has to pull the trigger. No right or wrong answers, just so the owner has the final say.

Today if I took a block to a shop, and they had a deck plate, I would probably have them use it, but as I previously said, I was never offered that option. I won more than a few races not using a deck plate, but none of my competition were using one either.....

"but none of my competition were using one either." Key Point there.

Agree, Everyone has their criteria, for how well and how long they want the engines/platform to live.

I do not throw rocks at what others do for their specific type of racing.
New for me will be the Pikes Peak Hill Climb on a full asphalt race course
this year. I will be a very minor member of the Gale Banks race effort.

Tom V.

[25stevem]

In terms of factory 1970 and up motors and maybe a bit earlier motor’s, I think part of the reason that Pontiac cylinder walls hold up so good even without a torque plate is the use of 1st and 2nd groove Moly face rings.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by GoreMaker

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. In this thread alone, the extremes are represented with equal passion:

- if your machinist suggests honing without a torque plate, you should find a new machinist, because that's crazy talk

vs

- it doesn't matter, the engine will outlast you anyways

...and everything in between. This is practically a religious debate. There's even one guy saying that honing with an aluminum torque plate might somehow be detrimental in the long run. It doesn't get much more divisive than this!

For my next trick, I'll start a thread asking for a motor oil recommendation (not really)

I think the main selling points for honing with a torque plate are:

- squeeze out the last ounce of power and efficiency from the motor, though the results may not be terribly evident in a street motor

- piston rings will bed in and seal quicker if the bores are perfectly round on initial start-up, thereby shortening the break-in period

Those sound like worthy reasons to me. It's worth the extra minor expense, especially considering how much money goes into rebuilding an engine in the first place. The shake-n-bake, magnaflux and sonic testing were $300. I've still got line honing, decking and align boring to look forward to. If honing with a torque plate adds $100 to all that, then it's totally worth it.

OK, its good that you chose to use the tq plate.
BUT, you need to remember a Pontiac tq plate hone job will not be like a sbc where you can bore to .004 under and hone it with a tq plate. If your machinist does that your bore will not be round.
Why, because a Pontiac distorts more than a sbc. Dan told me he bored AND honed with a tq plate for that reason. Pontiacs distort .006 so you can not bore .004 under.
My machinist could not bore and hone with plate due to his equipment. So he bored .010 under and honed it with the plate from there.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by GoreMaker

It's amazing how people will settle in the oddest ways. I wasn't kidding about the local Pontiac enthusiasts, some of them have 800hp street machines that they drag race for fun, others have 600+hp cruisers that they take big pride in. Not one of them had a torque plate used in their engine builds. Some even scoffed when I insisted I wanted to use one, like somehow that was a stupid concept. The mentality of "I didn't use one, and my engine rocks, therefore it's useless" can be found all over the place, throughout our entire culture. Nevermind that it's a minor extra expense with nice potential benefits and no downsides. The fact that the engine could've been noticeably better doesn't matter. It's really no different than "I've always used this motor oil and it's been fine so far, so anything different is stupid", or "this turbo worked well for me, so there's no point considering anything else". Anecdotes rule when it comes to these things. That's why I like to get lots of opinions and the reasons behind those opinions.

Building a 800HP street engine means they are IA2 or MR1 builds. Building one of those without a tq plate is crazy talk. Utterly foolish.
Think of it this way, 200-300$ is chump change building a engine. Its basically free horsepower the way I look at it. It will always be there reminding you of the good decision you made.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

... because a Pontiac distorts more than a sbc...

??????

I've got my own torque plate. Maybe someday I'll borrow a bore gauge and get some hands-on evidence of bore distortion.

[Gach]

My machinist could not bore and hone with plate due to his equipment. So he bored .010 under and honed it with the plate from there.

Are you serious about that ? and you went for it ?

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Jack Gifford

??????

I've got my own torque plate. Maybe someday I'll borrow a bore gauge and get some hands-on evidence of bore distortion.

How is it going Jack ?
We have been through this before. Yeah it might be cool if you did that, then we could answer it once and for all.
I am going off what Dan Whitmore told me. He took detailed notes on everything. Wrote down the distortion for the different makes. It was a long time ago but I specially remember him telling me you can not bore a Pontiac .004 under finish bore size without a plate and hone it round with one.
.005-.006 a 1/2" below the deck next to the head bolt on a Pontiac 455 is what I was told. Remember the 289 Ford having the least distortion.
I should have asked his widow if I could have his notes when a called her to get my stuff. (and my cast finned valley cover)Hopefully they went to a good place and did not get thrown away.

[Gach]

Here’s something to think about, what has been determined as far as stock blocks go. I’m not saying don’t use deck plate to bore and hone. It’s really tough finding a stock block that doesn’t have thin walls, even the ones that have been sonic tested that will be ok after boring. Will move around, thats why we went to filling that blocks, because those cylinders walls move around and filling helps that allot. It’s been proven. Allot of guys ( Street cruisers ) filled stock blocks after all this was determined and had no issues with over heating. My opinion for what it’s worth unless you filling the block, torque plate boring and honing isn’t going to achieve much. Nothing wrong with going for all the gusto torque plate honing if it gives you piece of mind.

[25stevem]

Sorry, but a Pontiac block does not distort more then a SBC!

Many of the head bolt bosses in a SBC are tied right the heck on to the cylinder wall, none of the head bosses are that way on a factory Pontiac block.

Give me sonic test results first between two different make blocks before you make a blanket statement about cylinder wall distortion.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by GoreMaker

My main concern is with longevity and minimal oil consumption. Since this is a numbers matching block, and I plan to keep the car until I die, I'd like it to last that long without needing another rebuild.

Even if you don't care about the extra "free" horsepower, the above quote is enough to justify the extra expense and effort. Go thru the complication once and feel good forever.

Eric

[Tom Vaught]

Saving Money, does not do you much good when you are not around to spend it.

Figure out what you want in your life and then spend the money to make it happen.

Tom V.

[Schurkey]

My favorite machinist was "pit crew" for a local circle-track hero, many years ago. Ran 400 and then 455 Pontiacs against RB Mopars, high-dollar Clevelands, and a billion SBCs. Finished first or second in the yearly points tally every year.

Blocks were not torque-plate honed. My guy said that Pontiacs don't need it, head bolts don't tie into the cylinders, etc. I got every "reason" except the one about "high nickel blocks". He's smarter than that.

When it came time to do Father-In-Law's 455 for his Trans-Am, I bought a torque plate from eBay.

My machinist buddy was skeptical. He'd been very successful without 'em. But he bolted it to the block and took measurements.

When he was done, he said he'd never hone another Pontiac without a torque plate. He was stunned at how much they move around under stress.

If an engine I'm responsible for is getting bored, it's getting a torque-plate hone using the same kind of head gasket as the engine will be assembled with. In this case, if there's no aluminum torque plate available, I'd use an iron one. If there's no torque plate at all, I'd consider stacking flat washers under short "head bolts"--being sure to have the same thread engagement in the block as the actual head bolts would have--and just torque the bolts against the washers.

[Tom Vaught]

Another convert to the world of "KNOW" vs "ASSUME".

"One piece of valid data is worth 1000 opinions." Jim Clarke

Tom V.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

My favorite machinist was "pit crew" for a local circle-track hero, many years ago. Ran 400 and then 455 Pontiacs against RB Mopars, high-dollar Clevelands, and a billion SBCs. Finished first or second in the yearly points tally every year.

Blocks were not torque-plate honed. My guy said that Pontiacs don't need it, head bolts don't tie into the cylinders, etc. I got every "reason" except the one about "high nickel blocks". He's smarter than that.

When it came time to do Father-In-Law's 455 for his Trans-Am, I bought a torque plate from eBay.

My machinist buddy was skeptical. He'd been very successful without 'em. But he bolted it to the block and took measurements.

When he was done, he said he'd never hone another Pontiac without a torque plate. He was stunned at how much they move around under stress.

If an engine I'm responsible for is getting bored, it's getting a torque-plate hone using the same kind of head gasket as the engine will be assembled with. In this case, if there's no aluminum torque plate available, I'd use an iron one. If there's no torque plate at all, I'd consider stacking flat washers under short "head bolts"--being sure to have the same thread engagement in the block as the actual head bolts would have--and just torque the bolts against the washers.

Pretty sure I would like that guy!! You have to see this stuff to believe it. Of course you can win races without a torque plate, even championships. But we are hopefully still learning and using this knowledge to improve. Honing a block at operating temperature made sense and seemed to be the "next big thing". But it turned out to be a lot of work for minimal gains. Hundreds of great sounding ideas seemed to guarantee world beater results........until we actually tried them. The advantage of a torque plate, used properly, is pretty well established by expert engine builders with much more experience, more championships, and thousands more blocks under their belt than I will ever know. With my limited sample size and experience, I am sold on the idea and benefits. Among domestic V-8's, I would rate a Pontiac middle of the pack on cylinder distortion.

[KEN CROCIE]

If you use a torque plate, you will have the piece of mind knowing you did everything possible ,technologically, to create a long lasting engine..
Business opportunity!! Buy a torque plate and rent it out to the machine shops in your area to service the Pontiac customers. You might might recover the price of plate , or MORE.
BHJ sells iron torque plates

[Tom Vaught]

SOME VERY GOOD ADVICE FROM TWO VERY SHARP ENGINE BUILDERS.

Just Saying.

Tom V.

[Steve C.]

Years ago my engine builder did not have a Pontiac torque plate. So he ordered one from BHJ and we split the cost.

.

[Skip Fix]

So a question for the theory of block plates-we are trying to deform the bore as it would be with a head on it. It is generally recommended to use the same type head gasket so should you use the same length bolts and spacers the same length as the head holes in each spot to get it closer? It is recommended for main bores to rehone theme going from bolts to studs-the same for a piston bore?

[GoreMaker]

Yes, that's the recommendation. Studs deform the main saddles differently than bolts. First, they grab more threads in the block than bolts do. They often grab ALL the threads, which is one of their advantages over bolts. Second, the clamping force is applied differently. In fact, in many cases, if you just switch from bolts to studs, there's a good chance the crank will bind at some point in its rotation. Keeping in mind that bearing clearance is only about 0.003", that doesn't give a lot of leeway for any extra distortion. Just a 0.001" distortion might cause issues with the oil film, even if the crank isn't binding. That's a 33% loss of clearance.