[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by b-man

Probably the worst thing you can do is use some chemicals in your crankcase to break free a bunch of crud all at once that was fine if left where it was deposited. Clogging up your oil pickup screen and damaging an otherwise okay engine is your reward.

There are products which are formulated to slowly clean up deposits and unstick lifters and such but backyard use whatever comes to mind or happen to have on hand methods are questionable at best.

In the 1980's the outfit I worked for started pushing an 'engine oil flush' upsell on the regular oil and filter change. I wouldn't recommend them and got some heat. We bought a few engines, mostly for the older customers who lived in a nearby retirement community and who drove pristine, low mileage '60's and '70's cars that were full of sludge and carbon from all the one mile trips they made to the store or to church. The solvent we used would break up sludge and coke and it would enter the oiling system and clog things up and a bearing would go south. Just like a blood clot. BAD idea. The best way for a clean engine is to maintain it in the first place.

[mgarblik]

After reading all these posts, I think I can safely say this. There are worse things to put in the oil pan than 5 quarts of ATF. ATF is essentially around a 10W fluid. Petro or synthetic base. Why the hell anyone would fill an engine with it, I have no idea. It even cost more than the proper oil that belongs in there. It will make pressure and it keeps the parts wet. So it's better than running the engine with nothing in there. I tend to put the proper fluids where they belong. Would anyone recommend filling an auto transmission with 10W-30 engine oil? I am guessing it would still go forward and backwards and may even shift. But for how long?

[srmmmm]

I've used Gunk Motor Flush in the past when lifter noise began to develop, but only because I knew the condition of the engine. In all cases, the vehicles had always received oil changes at proper intervals and the flush was done as a means to check for sludge or varnish build up in lifter oil ports. On my Chevy and Pontiac engines, there was a 50/50 chance that it would help. I found that lifter noise was more readily addressed with a heavier weight oil.

On the 1990 Mazda MPV I had with the 3 liter V-6, it always helped. The mini-sized hydraulic lash adjusters on that SOHC engine had oil feed ports that were too small and the least amount of build up would lead to the cam followers tap dancing when the oil was hot. So it was a flush with every oil change until a service bulletin authorized replacement of the adjusters with an improved version.

I would be hesitant to do a flush on an older engine without pulling a valve cover for inspection first.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Would anyone recommend filling an auto transmission with 10W-30 engine oil? I am guessing it would still go forward and backwards and may even shift. But for how long?

When I was working for The Bus Company, several of our customers wanted 15W-40 engine oil in their heavy-duty Allison transmissions. This was apparently fully-approved by Allison. Most of our customers were happy with normal Dexron III. One of our customers wanted some "special" trans fluid that was ultra-viscous. I don't remember what that stuff was, but it pumped like heavy engine oil, yet had the normal red "trans fluid" dye in it.

The transmissions didn't seem to care what fluid was in them--Dexron, engine oil, or weirdly-thick trans fluid.


There was a time I was "flushing" my hand-me-down '66 Biscayne with "Black Label" CD2, a detergent product by Alemite/Stewart Warner at that time, now it's a "Turtle Wax" product. I didn't realize that hydraulic lifters act as tiny oil filters--the oil inlet passages were plenty large, but the oil outlet was the microscopic clearance between the OD of the plunger and the ID of the lifter body. So sludge gets in, can't get out.

[HWYSTR455]

Has to be a legitimate reason you would think of adding some type of cleaner to the oil, like a sticky lift or stuck ring, not general maintenance IMO. And, it's usually either a last resort or hail-mary. You can get lucky though.

ATF does have heavy detergents in it, so it does make sense, and it can work in some instances. But never use all ATF.

Oil additive packages are much better these days, and there isn't the same type of 'Quaker State' buildup as in the past. A lot of it is the additives, but poor change intervals and overheating, that plays a big part in buildup.

A-chunk-o-sumthin hanging a lifter or ring, that I understand attempting a hail-mary fix, like I said, you can get lucky, and have personally had luck with lifters.

MMO is basically a detergent additive package, so in theory, it won't really do any 'harm', but if it helps, I think it's base on a number of factors, and again will just say you might get lucky.

Now atf mixed with water, trickled down a carb while working the throttle, that can help with buildups and sticky valves. It's part of the basis of the MMO product success, can do crank case and/or in gas.

Still, I think most of the 'mystery' of any of the 'magic in a bottle' stuff is hype. Marketing. And targets consumers that aren't 'automotive savvy'.

It is cool though, and always gives me a chuckle, when I see people doing seafoam in an apartment/townhouse complex, on an import with a fart-can exhaust, fogging the whole area.

.

[ta man]

I can guarantee most on this forum have clean engines..cleaner than the guy pouring tranny fluid in. As everybody knows you don' t get all the oil out on an oil change always a little left..if someone is filling the engine with ATF there will be ATF left in the engine after it is drained.

[Dragncar]

Diesel(Dello 400) has a lot of detergents in it. You could do a few quick interval oil changes with that stuff and not worry about a thing.

[455dan]

Originally Posted by b-man

Probably the worst thing you can do is use some chemicals in your crankcase to break free a bunch of crud all at once that was fine if left where it was deposited. Clogging up your oil pickup screen and damaging an otherwise okay engine is your reward.

There are products which are formulated to slowly clean up deposits and unstick lifters and such but backyard use whatever comes to mind or happen to have on hand methods are questionable at best.

I was asked to replace a leaking intake gasket on an unnamed family members Chevy SB. When I got the intake off- well this is what was inside.

I Very carefully wiped up what I could while using a shop vac, but No way was I going to flush that engine , Like you posted It will plug the pick up screen and starve the pump.

Did change the oil and filter before handing it back. It is still running, but SMH

[steve25]

We should be very concerned with using any type of flush that will effect the shear properties that a engine oil has.

To me this means any parts of the engine of which there are many that are not directly fed pressurized oil and yet heavily loaded like Cam lobes for one example.

[steve25]

Back in post #28 you can clearly see the long term effects of the intake manifolds exh cross over roasting the engine oil.

Thankfully our Pontiacs have a push rod cover that negates that issue. and in a series of the low compression heads when the use of catalytic converters was on the horizon the factory went through the trouble of making the exh crossovers in the head castings smaller and adding a dead air space above them in the heads so oil does not burn as in that SBC photo even under the valve cover area in our Pontiac heads.

Pontiac engineering seemed to know what Chevy did not care to address, that being exh systems restricted by a Catalytic was going to kick up both back pressure and in turn heat that would burn a mineral based oil.

[HWYSTR455]

ATF can make seals grow too, have to keep that in mind. Balancer seal immediately comes to mind.



.

[78w72]

From what Ive read about ATF & seen in analysis tests is that ATF is actually much lower in detergents than normal oil, because ATF is only a hydraulic fluid and not exposed to internal combustion engine byproducts it does not need or have high concentrations of detergents & basically no or very low anti wear additives that engine oil has. So ATF will not clean an engine anywhere near as good as regular oil will.

ATF may keep parts "wet" & if there is pressure it may keep bearings from touching moving parts, but with no anti wear or real lubricating properties the high wear & extreme pressure areas like cam/lifters do not have the needed protection, they are under full force of the valve springs the minute the engine is cranked over, & for 30 minutes straight the cam/lifters have basically zero protection. Same applies to other fluids like diesel or kerosene or raw fuel, they might be good cleaners but have no lubricating or anti wear properties and should not be ran full strength in any engine IMO.

Hopefully the comments & poll results (zero for pure ATF) will show that ATF has no place in an engine and does not clean anywhere near as good as engine oil or other products intended for that purpose. I noticed the last comment on the TH400 thread is now questioning if using pure ATF may have caused or contributed to the mystery noise in the engine...

Here is a recent blackstone analysis of Dex 3 ATF to show its make up, notice the low detergents & very low phos/zinc & other anti wear additives.

TAN: 0.7
Visc. @ 210F: 48.8 SUS
Water: 0.0
Insolubles: Trace

Aluminum: 0 Test by Blackstone Labs
Chromium: 0
Iron: 0
Copper: 0
Lead: 4
Tin: 0
Moly: 0
Nickel: 0
Manganese: 0
Silver: 0
Titanium: 0
Potassium: 0
Boron: 58
Silicon: 9
Sodium: 1
Calcium: 27
Magnesium: 2
Phosph: 159
Zinc: 17
Barium: 0

[Stan Weiss]

I think you may underrate the wear properties. It is used in Tremec manual trans.

Stan

[steve25]

The transfer case in my Pathfinder uses ATF also, but as posted in any type of auto or manual trans there is no loading like a engine produces, and also as mentioned I agree that the usage of pure ATF in TraderMikes motor may be what created the source of his engines noise.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I think you may underrate the wear properties. It is used in Tremec manual trans.

Stan

Im not under rating them, the analysis shows there is very little to no anti wear additives that an engine requires. Transmissions or transfer cases are not subjected to the same loading or pressures as an engine.... apples to watermelons.

[HWYSTR455]

Isn't Phosphorus a detergent? And anti-wear?

Maybe it's not enough to be considered, and I have no idea how much is in oil.



.

[Stan Weiss]

The engine does have a more constant load on parts, but I would have to believe that dropping the clutch at peak torque on a well built Pontiac cause much greater instantaneous loads than the engine sees. Also when power shifting at peak HP RPM.

Stan

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Also when power shifting at peak HP RPM.

Stan

Blown one too many cluster gears out the bottom of ST-10's doing that.

Clay

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by tom s

I would do the dsl again if I was unlucky enough to have to another sinking!Tom

I always wanted to have a boat and name it "Unsinkable II"

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I think you may underrate the wear properties. It is used in Tremec manual trans.

Stan

ATF is used in the New Process A833 manual trans as well.

K