[lust4speed]

For years we've been cautioned that running single springs was nothing more than courting disaster, and to stick with dual valve springs. Are the beehive springs that much of a jump in quality that we don't have to worry about breakage?

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

For years we've been cautioned that running single springs was nothing more than courting disaster, and to stick with dual valve springs. Are the beehive springs that much of a jump in quality that we don't have to worry about breakage?

X2, I would like to know that also...

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Pontiac urban legend. LOL. I can't count the number of engines produced, both stock and Hi=perf, that run single coil springs from manufactures.............. world wide. Only in a head in the sand Pontiac world do statements like these get started.
Heard the same bullsh*t back when I was one of the VERY first to use hyd rollers and the Pontiac world tried to trash the idea because Pontiac never cam with them.
Let's see. They trashed the E-heads on boards when first available too.

Don't take my word for it. Been around for 8 plus years. There is so much info on beehive springs out there that all one has to do is..............

Leave the Pontiac forums and Google the subject straight from the manufactures and factory's.

[Cliff R]

Just thinking out loud here, but with the stock 1.586" installed height used by most Pontiac heads, it would be difficult to get a single spring in there to get the job done with a nice HR set-up.

Going to longer valves, aftermarket heads, and much taller installed heights, using the beehive springs set-ups in Pontiac engines wouldn't be any different than any other engine. A spring really doesn't know what engine it is installed in, it just has to have enough seat and over the nose pressure to get the job done based on the desired rpm's and total combined weight on the parts involved on both sides of the rocker arms.

I have always wanted to run a "tight lash" hydraulic roller set-up in lieu of the HIPPO solid roller deal that I'm running currently. One would think that a well made HR lifter, ran with minimal plunger travel would work well at high rpms, and even better if the components involved were lightened up some........Cliff

[Steve C.]

After they first became popular David Vizard used a beehive spring in a Chevy big block solid roller application. It's my understanding a BBC valvetrain mass will vary but I'll assume in this application it could have been heaiver than some higher performance Pontiac applications using longer & larger diameter valves and our pushrod length. It was used in conjunction with a Comp 286XSR (248 degree) solid street roller to about 6200 rpm with about 150 lbs seat pressure. I believe it was 410 lbs over the nose. He stated, for those not familiar with this high-tech spring, that seat pressure number might look a little on the low side. But to understand how effective they can be, you need to bare in mind that to swap to these low-mass springs has more effect on increasing rpm than making a change to titanium valves. At the time with a beehive spring a ballpark figure was that with 10 percent less spring, the engine will turn about 12 percent more rpm and show better control all the way up the rpm range. These numbers were over 6 years ago, today the numbers might be different.

( 130 -145 lbs seat pressure can be risky business with solid roller lifters and conventional valve springs !! Lose enough spring pressure and the lifter can lose contact on the lobe as the valve closes, after time the springs can further deteriorate to the point it can cause issues other than a nosing over at rpm. From a Jim McFarland article..."What can cause valves to "bounce" during a closing cycle? Insufficient valve spring pressure, improperly designed camshaft lobe profile, and excessive rpm are among the leading issues. Not only can cylinder pressure be lost but also damage frequently occurs to valve seats, spring retainers and valve keepers. In addition, valve springs become weakened each time a condition of bounce takes place. In addition, the problem will occur at a lower and lower rpm each time a spring is subjected to this condition." )

.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Unnoticed valve spring bounce (even mild bounce) can also oblong the roller bearing housing in a roller lifter, beat the needle bearings, then come apart. Then the owner wants to blame the design of the lifter, no pin oiling, etc. when in all, the total spring package caused the issues to begin with.
The valve spring is the MOST abused item in an Engine. Period. When talking beehive. I'm talking 1.750 and above installed height as that's where ya end up with lifts and hyd roller cams anyway. If ya have to recess the spring seat (and/or offset keepers) on factory heads to get a BETTER spring..... then do it.

[grandville455]

I would really like to try the comp 26056 with tit retainers this year with my setup, I will set it up at 1.81 IH and after break in it should be close to 155 on the seat.

[gtofreek]

We ran a BB Chevy on the dyno with a hydraulic roller cam. Customer supplied the heads. They came with a conventional single spring with a damper. They made 155 lbs. on the seat and around 380 open. The engine would pull to 5600 RPM and fall flat on it's face. We suggested going to Beehive springs and retainers. With the Beehive springs and steel retainers, the engine pulled to 6300 RPM with no other changes.

To date, I can only remember ever seeing one broken Beehive spring, and I believe it was the victim of other parts failures, not the spring itself.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

We ran a BB Chevy on the dyno with a hydraulic roller cam. Customer supplied the heads. They came with a conventional single spring with a damper. They made 155 lbs. on the seat and around 380 open. The engine would pull to 5600 RPM and fall flat on it's face. We suggested going to Beehive springs and retainers. With the Beehive springs and steel retainers, the engine pulled to 6300 RPM with no other changes.

To date, I can only remember ever seeing one broken Beehive spring, and I believe it was the victim of other parts failures, not the spring itself.

Paul, Does that mean one wouldn't have to spend the extra money on a tit retainer then if using the beehives? I meant 1.800 IH since it coil binds at 1.100 in my post above. I think I will run some tool steel retainers, there lighter than the moly ones and only a little heavier than tit and half the price!

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by grandville455

Paul, Does that mean one wouldn't have to spend the extra money on a tit retainer then if using the beehives?

The Ti retainers are nice, but the steel retainers for Beehive springs are very small and much lighter than the steel retainer for a conventional spring. The steel retainer for a Beehive spring, I would say, is pretty close to the same weight as a Ti retainer for a conventional spring.

Also, I failed to mention that the Beehive spring setup was about 10 lbs. less on the seat, and IIRC, about 350 over the nose.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

The Ti retainers are nice, but the steel retainers for Beehive springs are very small and much lighter than the steel retainer for a conventional spring. The steel retainer for a Beehive spring, I would say, is pretty close to the same weight as a Ti retainer for a conventional spring.

Also, I failed to mention that the Beehive spring setup was about 10 lbs. less on the seat, and IIRC, about 350 over the nose.

Was that a comp beehive spring?

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by grandville455

Was that a comp beehive spring?

Yes. I forget the number, but it was the big one for BB Chevy. I believe it is the biggest/strongest available from them.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Yes. I forget the number, but it was the big one for BB Chevy. I believe it is the biggest/strongest available from them.

The only one that looks close to your 350 open is the 26120 with 388 open, 370 rate and a 1.900 IH @148, I like that one too, but its only good for 600 lift which would work for me since I run just under that with lash, but no room to grow in lift.

[gtofreek]

That sounds like it. I don't remember what lift this guy had.

[grandville455]

I'm sorry its .650, but I was looking at my IH of 1.87 which would be .620...

[68GoatMan]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

One would think that a well made HR lifter, ran with minimal plunger travel would work well at high rpms, and even better if the components involved were lightened up some........Cliff

I just ordered a set of short travel HR lifters from Luhn Performance and I'm running Ti retainers. I'll update with results.

[Ventura455]

I run the beehive springs on my wifes smallblock mopar. Her motor has a 4 inch stroker crank which makes a 360cid motor into a 408. I run edelbrock heads with a 2.08 intake and a nasty solid flat tappet cam(276/280 @ .050 631 lift). she shifts at 7000 rpm and trapps at 7200. The beehive springs weigh 77 grams and the retainers weigh 8.8 grams. The double spring we started with weighs 115 grams and the retainer weighs 31.6. The double springs lived about 80 passes( less than 1 year) and the beehive springs after 5 years have lost 3 lbs on the seat and 2 lbs on the nose. I run the Pac beehive springs. She makes around 2 to 3 hundred passes a year. here is a vid of her making a pass

http://youtu.be/t0OVIsU01mg

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by Ventura455

I run the beehive springs on my wifes smallblock mopar. Her motor has a 4 inch stroker crank which makes a 360cid motor into a 408. I run edelbrock heads with a 2.08 intake and a nasty solid flat tappet cam(276/280 @ .050 631 lift). she shifts at 7000 rpm and trapps at 7200. The beehive springs weigh 77 grams and the retainers weigh 8.8 grams. The double spring we started with weighs 115 grams and the retainer weighs 31.6. The double springs lived about 80 passes( less than 1 year) and the beehive springs after 5 years have lost 3 lbs on the seat and 2 lbs on the nose. I run the Pac beehive springs. She makes around 2 to 3 hundred passes a year. here is a vid of her making a pass

http://youtu.be/t0OVIsU01mg

What Pac Spring u running on yours?

[Jurassicgto]

Pac-1255 beehive good to .700 lift . 1.95 installed ht. 160 lbs. 1.3 open 425 lbs.

[Ventura455]

Originally Posted by grandville455

What Pac Spring u running on yours?

I bought the springs through Hughes Engines in Ill. He originally did the heads, so when the double valve springs went bad in less than 80 passes I called him and he sold me the beehive springs,spring seats and retainers for his cost. He told me they were Pac springs .My installed height is 1.860 and I have 145# on the seat and 350 at .600 lift. The spring base OD is 1.310. The springs i have coil bind at 1.075. This setup is designed for the edelbrock heads with stock length valves..