[slowbird]

Anyone know if Winberg Crankshafts makes billet cranks for us Pontiac guys?

[Bnick166]

Will be interesting to find out. Their site says prototype so they would make anything you could dream up. Wonder what the ULTIMATE Pontiac V8 crankshaft would be? Definitely want the added counterweights....Billet, anything else "design-wise" that one would want?? Just curious what we could dream up to have designed.

[Steve C.]

Here, design a crankshaft

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...ign_issues.htm


"People think billet is stronger than a forging, but that's not true. Billet got that reputation from back when forged aftermarket cranks weren't readily available, and billet was the only way to go for a performance crank. With a forged crank, the forging process creates an interwoven grain structure."

Crankshaft Tech - Hot Rod Network




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[GTO Dan]

It you need a few made, I would likely go in with you.

[Bnick166]

Anyone wanna play along and figure out what the ultimate crank would be? I took a quick look At the link above. ...a heat treated and nitride, straight shot oiling, fully counterweighted forging with a real slick finish...anything else?
Any stroke or main & bearing size more desirable than another?

[Bnick166]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Here, design a crankshaft

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...ign_issues.htm


"People think billet is stronger than a forging, but that's not true. Billet got that reputation from back when forged aftermarket cranks weren't readily available, and billet was the only way to go for a performance crank. With a forged crank, the forging process creates an interwoven grain structure."

Crankshaft Tech - Hot Rod Network




.

From the link you supplied..... "There is an old argument that a forged crank is superior to a billet crank because of the allegedly uninterrupted grain flow that can be obtained in the forging process. That might be true of some components, but with respect to crankshafts, the argument fails because of the large dislocations in the material that are necessary to move the crankpin and counterweight material from the center of the forging blank to the outer extremes of the part. The resulting grain structure in the typical V8 crank forging exhibits similar fractured grain properties to that of a machined billet. More than one crankshaft manufacturer has told me that there is no way that a forging from the commonly used steel alloy SAE-4340 (AMS-6414) would survive in one of today's Cup engines.

[Steve C.]

Maybe, and not meant to argue. But I'll suggest not apples-to-apples.

In part from a article regarding the costs of NASCAR.....

Here is where we really see the power of money. Production engines live and die by a couple of dollars, while cost is no object for racing engines. (We've heard that one Nascar engine runs about 50 grand.) The pistons, rings and wrist pins in a Cup engine cost about three times the cost of an entire production Hemi V8, reports Baer.

Then consider NASCAR's exotic (and expensive) titanium valves. The expense comes from the complex shape of the race pistons and the precise machining of their surfaces, Baer says. "You can't just knock them out on a lathe," he said. "It takes special equipment to make them."

The same goes for the crankshaft, which is made of an advanced iron alloy. Even race spark plugs are unorthodox and comparatively pricey, Baer adds. "Production spark plugs cost pennies and ours cost dollars," he says.

[tom s]

I called Henry Velasco a couple years ago,he makes billet cranks.In Downey CA.Tom

[Steve C.]

Awhile ago after 10+ years of service I had a oiling issue that led to one bearing going bad. The crankshaft LOOKED fine except upon routine inspection we found the custom Crower billet crankshaft SLIGHTLY out of spec. The machine shop started to straighten the billet crank and right away the sound ..... BING ! It cracked. Junked it and ordered a Lunati forged crank and finished the repair.

A tid bit and a story for conversation. Does it mean anything relating here, I have no clue.

Edit: I do agree that CUP engines run billet cranks. It's the cost and typical delivery time that is not apples-to-apples with the forged Pontiac cranks sitting on shelves ready to ship.

Crankshaft Tech – Crank Call
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0710...ankshaft-tech/



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[GoatZillaRacing]

I have a billet Velasco crank but I also bought a Winberg for the A/Fuel Dragster and I must admit - it's Jewelry quality and was almost to pretty to use!

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

... Wonder what the ULTIMATE Pontiac V8 crankshaft would be?...

I don't really know. But I would investigate a configuration that could [somehow] have a retention scheme for high-strength magnesium (Electron-43) filler segments to eliminate all leading/trailing edges of counterweights- as I did with my four-banger Moldex billet (which was very tedious to do after-the-fact).
I would also look into alternatives to the normal half-moon keyway in the snout. My blown hemi V8 did well by milling the keyway full-length of the snout and using a single long key through both the timing gear and the blower pulley hub. For the four-banger (more inherent torsional vibration) I went to a single long round key to eliminate the stress risers at the corners of a square keyway- which also was a devil of a job.

[steve25]

Steve that's full on true!
A non twisted 4340 Crank is the ultimate in strength you can get!
I am not 100% sure but I think a twisted Crank and most Billets are about the same in strength?

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by GoatZillaRacing

I have a billet Velasco crank but I also bought a Winberg for the A/Fuel Dragster and I must admit - it's Jewelry quality and was almost to pretty to use!

The dragster have a pontiac in it? Got pics of the winberg crank?

[Gary Kubisch]

I really always envied the fact that the Pontiac guys could get a Sonny Bryant crank.

[Bnick166]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Maybe, and not meant to argue.

Discussions are meant to enlighten us on a specific subject and we all have our own opinions and schools of thought. I thought It'd be neat to poll them together and see what we could dream up and have designed so Winberg could whip one (or 10) up and maybe they would have an offering for the Pontiac V8. And not just some "run of the mill" crank available from many places...but a "kick-ass" crank that any "True Pontiac Race Engine" enthusiast would salivate over. Jack has some GREAT input...anyone else care to "dream" up a crank to submit to Winberg for pricing?

[BruceWilkie]

And the process starts with a poured metal. An ingot is basically a casting ! How and what is blended before becoming hot poured metal and the processes involved in shaping, hardening, and creating the final product is what makes the difference.

Powdered metal technology is showing possibilities and may end up being the ultimate in process for parts of the future.

Could powder based materials be blended with metal and plastics for the ultimate durability???

I think so. I've seen thin plastic metal blend materials (machine covers)that took a cut off wheel or hack saw to trim vs older version you could simply score and break off with a pocket knife. The company I worked for was using both powdered metals and powdered plastics as early as the 80's. I'm sure the technology has advanced considerably.

Composite crank and rods anyone???
Imbedded hi tech metals in equally hi tech plastics???
The OEM's seem headed this direction.

[Bnick166]

Good points, Bruce. How do we figure that into our dream crank that we submit to Winberg?

[BruceWilkie]

Tell him to get together the scientists to develop the materials and processes.
Shouldn't cost much right ?

Perhaps the right blend of advanced epoxy resins (JB Weld? lol) and a mix of powdered metals you couldn't normally/easily melt together let alone take advantage of their own specific heat treat qualities??? Better yet you would then make it possible to have strength, cushion and lubricity where each are most needed.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Bnick166

Discussions are meant to enlighten us on a specific subject and we all have our own opinions and schools of thought. I thought It'd be neat to poll them together and see what we could dream up and have designed so Winberg could whip one (or 10) up and maybe they would have an offering for the Pontiac V8. And not just some "run of the mill" crank available from many places...but a "kick-ass" crank that any "True Pontiac Race Engine" enthusiast would salivate over. Jack has some GREAT input...anyone else care to "dream" up a crank to submit to Winberg for pricing?

Does anyone posting have an inside track with a person, owner or engineer at Winberg? I ask this because many years ago after waiting nearly 2 years for a Moldex, I talked to every crankshaft manufacturer at PRI about making Pontiac crankshafts. Winberg, I remember distinctly, poo-pooed the idea and questioned me directly why anyone would want or need a billet crankshaft for a Pontiac. After a lengthy discussion, they reluctantly said they would carve out a Pontiac crankshaft for some crazy price. (They obviously were trying to make me go away). Their stuff looks really nice, but didn't get that warm and fuzzy feeling they were at all interested in making them. Crower, on the other hand was more than willing to make any type of billet crank we needed with all types of special operations such as the 4 keyways we use on the funny car. I just have a hard time getting involved with companies that are openly condescending, eye rolling, and think you are a moron for not running a BBC, or a Hemi. If things have changed at Winberg, that's a very good thing.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Does anyone posting have an inside track with a person, owner or engineer at Winberg? I ask this because many years ago after waiting nearly 2 years for a Moldex, I talked to every crankshaft manufacturer at PRI about making Pontiac crankshafts. Winberg, I remember distinctly, poo-pooed the idea and questioned me directly why anyone would want or need a billet crankshaft for a Pontiac. After a lengthy discussion, they reluctantly said they would carve out a Pontiac crankshaft for some crazy price. (They obviously were trying to make me go away). Their stuff looks really nice, but didn't get that warm and fuzzy feeling they were at all interested in making them. Crower, on the other hand was more than willing to make any type of billet crank we needed with all types of special operations such as the 4 keyways we use on the funny car. I just have a hard time getting involved with companies that are openly condescending, eye rolling, and think you are a moron for not running a BBC, or a Hemi. If things have changed at Winberg, that's a very good thing.

Hey Mike,

I had the same experience back in 2012. I was told they would need to do 50 cranks to even consider Pontiac crankshafts to make them cost effective.

Thanks.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420