[Glenn]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

$1850 for 235-cfm?:rolleyes:

I don't get it.:confused:

The weight savings over a ported d-port doesn't seem worth the expense.

Brian, the extra performance achieved from the improved design is also a major consideration in spite of the flow. Another reason that I like these heads is the abiltiy to have 10+ compression on 89-91 octane gas and to run cooler.

Here are the results flow results of the out of the box ready to use Edelbrock Pontiac E-Head tested on the same flow bench.

Int.
Lift
.100 66.7
.200 140.9
.300 204.6
.400 251.0
.500 281.7
.600 294.3
.700 299.4

Exh.
.100 54.8
.200 115.8
.300 152.7
.400 181.9
.500 198.1
.600 206.0
.700 211.2

The KRE heads were tapped out at the .600 lift and the Edelbrock heads were still coming on at .700. As you can see the flow at the lower ranges are fairly close, but at .400 the Edelbrock flow numbers rapidly increase while the KRE start to go flat. Again, that really becomes obvious looking at both on a graph.

My question, why haven't we seen any of these comparisons done in any of the Pontiac magazines, using both flow results and actual drag strip times on the same car? I can only guess. Maybe there has been, and I just missed it.

But as Jeff Kauffman said and which is true, we race cars and not test benches.

Also, Jim Hand switched back using his 6X-4 and doesn't use the KRE's anymore.

[Brian Baker]

"why haven't we seen any of these comparisons done in any of the Pontiac magazines"

Because it doesn't sell parts...or advertising.

[johnta1]

Might check this thread out.
Head Flow

[J Druin]

Glenn, I think you need to reread the post by Jim. Those are the exhaust port flow numbers. "Rather then talking about theory and maybes, why not look at some real and accurate exhaust flow numbers from all eight ports of the KRE 87 cc heads? Quote from the CP Q&A by Jim.

[BVR421]

Originally Posted by J Druin

Glenn, I think you need to reread the post by Jim. Those are the exhaust port flow numbers. "Rather then talking about theory and maybes, why not look at some real and accurate exhaust flow numbers from all eight ports of the KRE 87 cc heads? Quote from the CP Q&A by Jim.

Real and accurate on whose flow bench?
Every bench expresses its own version of reality.

[gearbanger]

Originally Posted by Glenn

Brian, the extra performance achieved from the improved design is also a major consideration in spite of the flow. Another reason that I like these heads is the abiltiy to have 10+ compression on 89-91 octane gas and to run cooler.

Here are the results flow results of the out of the box ready to use Edelbrock Pontiac E-Head tested on the same flow bench.

Int.
Lift
.100 66.7
.200 140.9
.300 204.6
.400 251.0
.500 281.7
.600 294.3
.700 299.4

Exh.
.100 54.8
.200 115.8
.300 152.7
.400 181.9
.500 198.1
.600 206.0
.700 211.2

The KRE heads were tapped out at the .600 lift and the Edelbrock heads were still coming on at .700. As you can see the flow at the lower ranges are fairly close, but at .400 the Edelbrock flow numbers rapidly increase while the KRE start to go flat. Again, that really becomes obvious looking at both on a graph.

My question, why haven't we seen any of these comparisons done in any of the Pontiac magazines, using both flow results and actual drag strip times on the same car? I can only guess. Maybe there has been, and I just missed it.

But as Jeff Kauffman said and which is true, we race cars and not test benches.

Also, Jim Hand switched back using his 6X-4 and doesn't use the KRE's anymore.

Wow. I had never heard that E-heads were 300 cfm heads out of the box.

I don't know about box stock KRE heads, but I know my 310 cfm versions are making some crazy horsepower and torque in my 461. I am going to find out what it will do in street trim this weekend at Bowling Green, KY. I'm heading over just to test and tune a little. I am curious to see what mph I can turn, but traction is going to be a problem on the nitto 555s (not Rs)

[gearbanger]

Originally Posted by Glenn

Brian, the extra performance achieved from the improved design is also a major consideration in spite of the flow. Another reason that I like these heads is the abiltiy to have 10+ compression on 89-91 octane gas and to run cooler.

Here are the results flow results of the out of the box ready to use Edelbrock Pontiac E-Head tested on the same flow bench.

Int.
Lift
.100 66.7
.200 140.9
.300 204.6
.400 251.0
.500 281.7
.600 294.3
.700 299.4

Exh.
.100 54.8
.200 115.8
.300 152.7
.400 181.9
.500 198.1
.600 206.0
.700 211.2

The KRE heads were tapped out at the .600 lift and the Edelbrock heads were still coming on at .700. As you can see the flow at the lower ranges are fairly close, but at .400 the Edelbrock flow numbers rapidly increase while the KRE start to go flat. Again, that really becomes obvious looking at both on a graph.

My question, why haven't we seen any of these comparisons done in any of the Pontiac magazines, using both flow results and actual drag strip times on the same car? I can only guess. Maybe there has been, and I just missed it.

But as Jeff Kauffman said and which is true, we race cars and not test benches.

Also, Jim Hand switched back using his 6X-4 and doesn't use the KRE's anymore.

These are the numbers on my 310s from Kauffman.

.100 81 67
.200 156 128
.300 221 174
.400 274 212
.500 300 238
.600 311 247
.700 313 251

Interesting to compare but probably nearly useless information.

[Skip Fix]

On my flow bench I flowed some Dave Bisshop ported 6X heads that flowed 280 cfm on his bench. Looked like a good job. We did not cc the ports. An UNTOUCHED early 72 cc Ehead no final valve job yet outflowed it from the low lifts to the higher lifts. So by that comparison that would be a 300cfm E head also! 4.25 bore on both. Edelbrock advertises them at 280 or so.

Even flowing at different pressures and making the corrections can give you different numbers,so its hard to get apples to apples unless you use the same flow bench.

Test bore size can make a big difference on any flow bench.

Otyer than seeing a sectioned KRE head I have no personal experience with flowing on. I do know that one with a large intake valve flows some pretty good air.

[David Holmberg]

Yes, the 72cc E-heads are said to flow 286 out of the box from Edelbrock...

I also agree that Flow numbers are not the entire story, I'd like to see a Back to back flow test, and back to back track tests... As we all know only the track numbers really matter. ;)

[Brian Baker]

Little birdie on the windowsill told me those 300+ cfm KRE heads aren't actually ported by KRE, but are outsourced. No matter I guess so long as you get what you pay for.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Little birdie on the windowsill told me those 300+ cfm KRE heads aren't actually ported by KRE, but are outsourced. No matter I guess so long as you get what you pay for.

Brian- nothing wrong with outsourcing machine time that is how you keep costs down. Most times it is feast or famine and one's business profile can not justify the cost of another 100k$ machine for the those rare times when you can not keep up.

If KRE and company wrote the cnc file then who cares?

[Engo]

Originally Posted by Glenn

Today I had my new non-ported 75cc Aluminum D-port heads flowed on a SuperFlow bench.

Am I wrong to be a little disappointed in the results.
The bore was 4.125 or .030 over on a 400ci engine.


234 @ .500
234.6 @ .600

180 exhaust

At the lower ranges you could hear the air fluctuate which I was told the air wasn't flowing smoothly (unstable) through the port. I'll be getting the print out in a few days and will pass along the numbers.

The heads that you are referring to are not "KRE Racing Heads". They are quite simple stock replacement heads. And as such seem to flow real well.

But I agree that the plain numbers as such still look small compared to the numbers stated by KRE.

I have a set of KRE alu D-port that were CNC ported by KRE to a maximum of 323cfm as stated by KRE. I had them flowed by a local guy that did not know about the KRE numbers. In his SF600 bench they flowed 323cfm as a peak but was down around 5cfm on the lower lifts compared to KREs numbers.
My KRE heads then went on to my 455 and made 674hp@6100rpm and 644ftlbs@4800rpm on the dyno with only a 260 duration roller. On the track my car pulls 128mph in the quartermile at 3660lbs on motor and on pump gas. I´d say that these heads can and will make power like few others can.:)

[PONTIAC DUDE]

One question?

If flow numbers don't mean anything as posted here by various people then why is it so important in all the PY posts over the last 5 years?


Now it's not important ?????
I'm lost. LOL.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

If KRE and company wrote the cnc file then who cares?

Who said anything about a CNC file or machine involved with the outsourcing?:confused2

[johnta1]

If flow numbers don't mean anything as posted here by various people then why is it so important in all the PY posts over the last 5 years?

Because the general public (and even some builders) take this as the Gospel for how good the heads are.
People are getting educated more and finding out there is more to it than just CFM.

[Glenn]

Engo
I was not trying to imply that these heads were "racing heads", but were made by KRE Racing, the company.

If you read the entire thread you will see numerous statements that these are mostly for performance street application.

[Ron H]

If you take the out of the box heads out of the box and bolt them on and make 500+ HP, they are doing more than just 235 cfm on a bench says...

[David Holmberg]

Dude, put down the ladel... ;)

You know that flow numbers without the proper runner size won't make good HP.
You also know that Flow numbers with a poor chamber won't make the power it should.

Don't you remember those heads that made the dogs in Tampa beg for Mercy? :D

[Glenn]

We discovered that part of the problem with my KRE heads flowing way under the advertised rate is upon lapping the intake valves we fiund the valve seats to be on the inside margin of the valve. It seems that the seat cutting tool was set to narrow.

Prior to this discovery we got the heads to flow about 252 cfm at .500 and about 260 @ .600 with some cleaning up and $250 later.

I emailed Jeff Kauffman this additional information over 24 hours ago and he chose not to respond.

[Glenn]

www.pontiacpower.com/Kaufmann%20Heads.htm

This is a story written by Bruce Fulper about his experience with set of KRE D-port heads. Lots of pictures and comparisons to E-heads. He and another independent head shop flowed the KRE heads and didn't even get has high of flow results as Port Flow Development. PFD results were 236 cfm vs. 222 cfm right out of the box and Fulper got 198 cfm.

My heads needed a little cleaning up but nothing as serious as what the pictures show in this story, but remember these heads are suppost to be out of the box, bolt-on and ready to run. This being from Bruce, you can take it with a grain of salt, but again his flow results also showed that KRE flow numbers are exaggerated.

This article was provided by Mike over at CP....Thanks Mike