[Ollie]

The Edelbrock EFI manifold for Pontiac is finnaly in stock. Is there any up dates on these projects http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/10...2811/m/566605926/p/2
Anyone else with plans or projects under way?

[Ollie]

The Edelbrock EFI manifold for Pontiac is finnaly in stock. Is there any up dates on these projects http://forums.performanceyears.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/10...2811/m/566605926/p/2
Anyone else with plans or projects under way?

[Paul Westcott]

Re: EFI Pontiacs
Although I'm not using port injection, my new EFI 455 (467) just went into my '67 Tempest. I'm using a 900 CFM Holley TBI with 4 X 85 PPH injectors, Edelbrock Performer RPM manifold and a DIY "MegaSquirt" controller. Still in early stages of tuning, but so far so good!

[Hammered]

I'm running the same Kinsler TB and Accel Gen 7 controller as the Spotts engine you referenced. I did all the tuning myself and had KRE help me dyno it (they built the long block). It started right up and made some good HP, but it needs to go back for tuning because I was sent the wrong injectors and we couldn't get the full potential of the engine. I posted details on my website in my sig. The only thing I might change is to go to a Holley TB and possibly the new FAST EFX controller.

I just finished polishing the intake last week and have the engine reassembled with the correct injectors.

John

[Paul Westcott]

TBI or TPI ...If you want to do it right, do it yourself!

MegaSquirt EFI Controllers:

http://www.megasquirt.info/

[Hammered]

Ollie,

What are you after? I spent a lot of time researching my system, perhaps I could suggest something to you if I knew what your objectives were.

67Tempest,

I thought the MS was strictly a batch or TBI system. Are you saying they've got a sequential system out now?

John

[Ollie]

Thanks Hammered,

My objective is to build a street able pump gas friendly 500 to 600 hp 455 for my 79 Z code TA. I have a set of # 64 heads being worked on at SD Performance, using PDudes custom pistons and forged rods. I haven’t made a decision on a cam. I have set of ram air exhaust manifolds that I will use.
I have been doing a lot of research over the last year or so, on EFI, now that Edelbrock released the Pontiac manifolds I will go with one of those with a Mega squirt ECM
I can’t make up my mind on which manifold to get, the Victor or the Super Victor. I see you are using the Pontiac Victor and getting over 500hp do you think that is about the limit for that manifold or is it capable of more hp?
I think I read on one of the Megasquirt boadrs where somone has an addon for sequential system. From what I have read about a sequential system is that there is not much of an advantage at higher rpm.

[Hammered]

Ollie,

The higher the HP you go for, the more you will want sequential. Larger HP means larger injectors which means shorter pulse widths at idle. With bank-to-bank or batch processing, you will be cycling the injector twice for every cycle which means even shorter pulse widths. The problem with shorter pulse widths is that you will be spending more time in the transient portion of the injector pulse cycle which will lead to idle issues. Since you are after a streetable combo, (as I am) I would reconsider sequential versus batch, especially if you're going to run A/C, vacuum assist brakes or an automatic. Otherwise, what you've read is true.

If you go sequential, you will have most of the stuff needed for ignition control. Unless they've added that, I don't believe the MS controls the ignition. Another thing that is worth the bucks, although pricey, is a wideband 02 sensor. You will make half of it back in saved dyno time.

My motor should go 550+ now that I've got the right injectors. I'm also running the Super RA manifolds (from RARE) so this number will come down some. I'm running power brakes, manual transmission and wanted it to idle no higher than 800 rpm and needed at least 10" of vacuum at idle. Jeff Kauffman spec'd the cam based on those requirements. I believe it could go 600 pretty easily as its got a moderate to mild hydraulic roller although idle would suffer some and my vacuum assist brakes might not work.

I went with the Victor because it packages nicely with my Ram Air pan. The TB top is only 1/4" higher than stock with the 3" tall Kinsler TB. The Super Victor also changes the plane of the carb base so making it work with your shaker might be a problem. If you go with the Victor, you will need Edelbrock's injectors. Double check the individucal injector part numbers if you do as they mispackaged the ones I originally received.

Sounds like we've got pretty similar goals. Hope this helps.

John

[Paul Westcott]

Hammered:
MS is working on a very sophistcated sequential system, even with ion sensing, but it's a ways off. MS is currently a batch system with two inj drivers that can be used either in an alternate or simultaneous mode. Sequential dosen't gain you anything, but slightly better very low rpm idle and slightly better emissions at low rpm. This is because at anything over idle the injector is open before, and as load increases, after the intake valve is closed. OEM uses this system for emission reasons only.

The new MegaSquirt II system features full ignition control and stepper motor idle air controllers (IAC), as well as having 12x12 tuning tables for fuel and ignition. Details? See link below:

http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/

I agree, wide band O2 is definately the way to go. I borrowed one for initial tuning and I'm saving my pennies for one of my own. This site in Australia has some good stuff.

http://www.techedge.com.au/

[Junkyard Dog]

What distributor do you use for ignition control, the 301 computer controlled HEI ones?

[Paul Westcott]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hammered:
Ollie,

The higher the HP you go for, the more you will want sequential. Larger HP means larger injectors which means shorter pulse widths at idle. With bank-to-bank or batch processing, you will be cycling the injector twice for every cycle which means even shorter pulse widths. The problem with shorter pulse widths is that you will be spending more time in the transient portion of the injector pulse cycle which will lead to idle issues. Since you are after a streetable combo, (as I am) I would reconsider sequential versus batch, especially if you're going to run A/C, vacuum assist brakes or an automatic. Otherwise, what you've read is true.

If you go sequential, you will have most of the stuff needed for ignition control. Unless they've added that, I don't believe the MS controls the ignition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've checked out your web page on your EFI Pontiac. ...very nice '67 FB! ...and I sure wish I had a dyno to play with! Anyway, I just can't see spending big $$$ on the "corporate aftermarket" EFI stuff. I'm still pretty new to all this EFI stuff, but my MegaSquirt II is a very capable EFI controller, with ignition control capability, for around $200!

Even though I'm currently running TBI on my 467, I disagree on the need for sequential injection. You only need one injection cycle per engine cycle per cylinder. MS allows more to smooth out the pulse effects on the fuel rail. My brother runs 4 x 86 pph injectors on his '68 430 ci cross-rammed, dual TBI Dodge Hemi (granted, not a Pontiac, but a BIG HP engine!). The idle pulse width is a shade over 2ms with one inj per engine cycle (8 pulses per 720 degrees). Since the opening time is fixed at .9ms and PWM coming in at 1.2 ms, with a pulse resolution of .01 ms, he's got plenty of resolution and time to tweek it anywhere he wants. He's dealt with other situations where the idle pulse width is only 1.5 ms and still had all the control he needed. The bottom line is that you must have very tight control over the short pulse widths at idle. This is especially true with high flow low impedance (less than 2 ohms) TBI injectors (his Hemi injectors are 1.3 ohms each). MS handles it all very well.

[Paul Westcott]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JunkYard Dog:
What distributor do you use for ignition control, the 301 computer controlled HEI ones? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would work, but you could also use an MSD with an externally mounted HEI or HEI II module to interface the MSII.

[Hammered]

JYD,

Most of the aftermarket systems allow you to run a variety of distributors. If you run sequential you need either a crank sensor or dual sync distributor.

67Tempest,

Thanks for the complements - I hope to get some more info up soon. I'm not disparaging your MS box and I'm not looking to get into an argument over sequential versus batch. I'm just relaying what I've learned from speaking to a lot of people who have a lot of first hand experience with these systems. Perhaps my definition of streetable is different from yours, but I'm after something that I can take on long trips, that has a smooth idle, can handle traffic jams and has the capability to run some vacuum accessories.

Because I'll be able to switch from SFI to batch with a few key strokes, perhaps I'll be able to relay first hand information in a few months. Right now the car is at a shop getting quarters hung.

You may not see the value in a system like the one I bought, but likewise, I didn't see the value in the MS system for what I wanted. If I were going TBI, I might think differently.

Ollie,

If cost is a major driver, you might look at a used FAST system. There are a lot of them comming up for sale now that the new FAST XFI is out. There's a large experience base with the older FAST system (probably the largest of any aftermarket system) and their customer support is good.

J.

[Ollie]

I have also been looking at this system
http://www.customefis.com/

[Ollie]

JunkYardDog,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What distributor do you use for ignition control, the 301 computer controlled HEI ones? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is an excerpt from "CUSTOMEFIS Custom Engineered Fuel Injection Systems WWW.customefis.com
How to build a GMEFI System
Written by John Wilsom
Published by Custom EFIS
First printing 03/03
GM HEI DISTRBUTOR CONVERSION TO COMPUTER CONTROL
IGNITION

The first task to accomplish is to get a GM ECM to control the ignition timing. This task is critical not because you have to control timing with the ECM, but because the communications from the GM ignition module to the ECM are absolutely necessary for the ECM to begin controlling fuel. Fortunately, this is a relativity easy task as long as you already have an electronic distributor with a magnetic pickup. There are two different styles of ignition modules you can use. I’ll call them the Corvette style and the Camaro style (also called a 7 pin and an 8 pin module respectively).
The corvette style is best to use when converting a GM HEI non-computer distributor to computer control because the ignition module is mounted inside the distributor cap and gives a factory look. The Camaro style is the best to use on a non GM distributor because the connectors are weatherproof and have a good seal from the elements. For those considering using a using a stock small-cap external coil distributor for your project, you may want to reconsider. I receive a lot of these distributors in the used systems I buy and they are usually corroded beyond repair. Occasionally I will get a decent looking one, but for the most part, they wear out much faster than the HEI style. The following section provides instructions for converting your distributor to GM EFI computer control.

GM HEI DISTRIBUTOR CONVERSION TO COMPUTUTER CONTLOD

This section describes how to modify a GM HEI non-computer distributor such that a GM EFI ECM can completely control the ignition timing. This conversion is the cleanest since the ignition module is mounted inside the distributor for a factory installed look. The first step is to buy an ignition module for a 1985 corvette or any other GM computer controlled HEI distributor (you can also buy the Corvette magnetic pickup coil and get a better installation, but this is optional). Remove the cap and rotor on your distributor and then remove the non-computer ignition module and the power connector and noise suppressor condenser. Once these parts are removed the removed, look for the magnetic pickup wires. They are green and white. If you elect to reuse the existing pickup coil, cut the plastic connector leaving as much wire as possible. Then solder a 1/8th “female spade terminal on the end of both wires (See Figure 1)

[Ollie]

After the solder cools, cover the terminals with heat shrink tubing. If using a new Corvette pickup coil, install it instead of soldering terminals on the old pickup. This requires removing the distributor shaft though so it’s not nearly as easy. Next file or break of the locating pins on the bottom of the Corvette ignition module. These will interfere with the proper seating of the module for proper heat dissipation. Be sure to spread the heat conducting paste on the bottom of the module l before installing it permanently. Next connect the power connector/condenser to the Corvette module and test the fit. The connector will have to be partially pushed on to the module. If it is pushed all the way on, the module won’t fit in the distributor housing such that the screws line up (See Figure 2)

[Ollie]

Now that the ignition module is connected to the power supply connector, temporarily install it so that one screw hole lines up. The other hole in the module will not line up so you’ll have to drill and tap a new hole. It is not recommended using just one hole since the module needs to have firm contact with the distributor housing for heat dissipation
(See Figure 3)

[Ollie]

Once both screws are installed connect the magnetic pickup coil wires to the module. The green wire goes to the “P” terminal and the white wire goes to the “N” Terminal
(See Figure 4).

[Ollie]

Next make a harness that will connect the module to the computer. The wiring diagram is on the WWW.diy-efi.org web site in the incoming directory. The file name is 7pingmfig.zip. Use a 4 way shroud (as opposed to tower) Packard-Delphi WeatherPAK connector with male pins, which is the factory configuration. Then solder 1/8 female spade terminals on the module end of the wires. The factory wire colors are white for the EST (E) terminal, purple/white for the timing reference HI signal ®, Tan/black for the bypass signal (B), and black/red for the reference ground wire (no terminal on the Corvette module). These colors are standard on every GM distributor based
EFI system made. The module terminals E, R, and B correspond to the WeatherPAK terminals A, B, C. The Weather PAK D terminal connects to the distributor body. Beware that the ABCD terminal designations are reversed when using the 8-pin Camaro module, so pay careful attention to the correct diagram when wiring the module.
(See figure 5 and 6)

[Ollie]

Now that the electrical items are done the mechanical and vacuum advance mechanisms need to be disabled, since the computer will take over controlling the timing. Start by cutting a thin (1/8”thick?) piece of metal into a 1 by 3/8 “strip. Then drill two holes in the strip a little more than 5/8” apart. The diameter of the holes should match the pin diameters holding the centrifugal weight springs. Once the strip is made, remove the centrifugal advance springs, the weights, the E-clips holding the weight stop to the distributor shaft and the weight stop. Install the metal strip you made on one pair of pins. It doesn’t matter which set of pins, either will do. Then replace the E-clips, finally, to disable the vacuum advance, simply leave the vacuum line off the vacuum motor port. It is recommend putting a rubber plug over the port, or cut it off for a more permanent modification. If the port is left open, an unknowing mechanic might reconnect a vacuum line to the vacuum motor and damage the engine. You have now completed the HEI computer controlled distributor conversion. (See Figure7)