[Formulajones]

Yeah Will I understand that. I have never claimed he's the best, and my experience with him isn't what I would call extensive, but have known/talked to him for several years. I will say he likes what he does and is very passionate about it, just a bit on the arrogant side. But so are a lot of other people I meet :shrug: A lot of different personalities out there.

I think the sad part for me is that Pontiac groups as a whole are few and far between, really a dying breed, and it's a shame that so many here want to bash, argue, and gripe about this or that for pages at a time. It never ends. If it's not about someone that isn't even here then it's between themselves. I've found that rather odd considering what is really needed in such a small community with very little followers (in comparison to other groups) is comradery... But I really feel sorry for those that have legit honest questions, then it goes on for 5 pages of grade school bickering 90% of which is just based on opinions.....and yet the poor fella still doesn't have an answer. A lot of that stupidness is why I don't care to visit much here anymore. When it comes down to it, frankly I really don't find that any different than people like Bruce and others.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

This forum is high society compared to a few circle track forums I check local results on. Hat's off to the passionate members and mods here. Seems most folks here can agree they disagree or perhaps learn and call it a day..... without blatant personal attacks and vulgarities.

[pontibeast]

I am relatively new to car forums Pontiac or other wise. I can admit that are some threads where people can take things a little too personal but for the vast majority of topics on here I have always heard lot's of experienced people offering their advice or opinion in a professional or adult matter. I have been helped immensely by many of the members here and as a result have saved a lot of money and time. Thanks to all who have taken the time out of what are very busy lives for most of us to guide the newer members through builds, tuning and troubleshooting. I personally have very thick skin and don't care if an occasional response sounds a little snide or rude. One thing that I find hard to recognize is when you are typing it's hard to be understood all the time. If someone is talking to you you can hear the tone of their voice, a joking or sarcastic tone or the volume of their voice. I think when there is an issue a lot of times it is a misunderstanding instead of someone being deliberately a jerk. I hang out at Yellow Bullet for entertainment because that place is a pit fight on almost every topic. Bad language, personal attacks, dragging family members into fight and worse are just part of the way there. PY is really helpful and well moderated compared to any of the other forums I have found, but I am new at this.

[Will]

Originally Posted by pontibeast

... One thing that I find hard to recognize is when you are typing it's hard to be understood all the time. If someone is talking to you you can hear the tone of their voice, a joking or sarcastic tone or the volume of their voice. I think when there is an issue a lot of times it is a misunderstanding instead of someone being deliberately a jerk....

As someone who studied communications in college I can say that you're on the mark. What we were taught is that written communication only contains about 30% of the information that you'd get if you were communicating in person.

We humans rely a LOT on tone of voice and body language (which includes expressions, movement, etc.). When you're communicating in a written medium it's REALLY easy to misinterpret the way someone is trying to say something. Especially if that person maybe isn't the greatest at expressing themselves in writing to begin with. I always try to give the benefit of the doubt in these forums and assume that the other person isn't trying to be a jerk. Most people just want to be helpful, and it's not too hard to tell when someone really is trying to push your buttons.

What Formulajones said about camaraderie strikes home with me. We're all here because of our mutual appreciation of the Pontiac marque, I think it behooves us to support each other rather than attacking. Also realize, there is almost always more than one way to accomplish something so just because someone doesn't do things the way you do doesn't mean they're an idiot.

it's unfortunate that sometimes ego gets in the way, but that's human nature I guess.

[chuckies76ta]

Well said guys..

[blykins]

Engine builders have a little bit of an ego anyway.....it comes with the territory....LOL

[Will]

Don't I know it! I played that game for a very short time. Might still be doing it if things had worked out differently.

I think you have to have a strong belief in yourself and the way you do things to be successful at almost anything you're passionate about.

[blykins]

Agreed.

Plus we have the whole internet deal today. The world is full of experts and the forums are full of guys who will argue with you till the death about things they have never experienced in their lives.

I absolutely love building engines. Can't think of anything else I'd rather do.

However, dealing with the public can pose its challenges: the guys who call and talk for 30 minutes about a camshaft recommendation, then will argue with you about what you recommended....the guys who tell me that they will put a check in the mail and then it never shows up....the guys who have never touched a performance engine in their lives, but want 650 hp carbureted engines....the guys who will tell you that your dyno is happy if it makes over what they think it should make, or tell you that you don't know what you're doing if it makes less....

Fun stuff.

[Will]

Yep, that's working with the public for you. I worked customer service and tech support for a software company for several years too. Some of the people we dealt with... It makes for good conversation over a beer.

[dmac]

I think it goes both ways. The public today is so cynical because we see a lot of bad service and products from so-called 'professionals. A friend recently had his 400 stroked to 465 - had his rear-end replaced, and put his car in the paint shop.

The builder was unfamiliar with Pontiacs and recommended a weak cam that didn't go with the rest of the build, then installed the hyd roller lifters with the stock valley cover and tore that up. The motor burned oil- about a quart an hour due to the shop not checking the cylinders for wear, so the whole motor had to be torn down again. The shop happily did the repairs, but wouldn't pay for parts or the machine work they originally never said was needed.

The rear end shop sold him a 3.93 rear end for his street 465 with a t350.

The paint shop did poor masking and left lots of runs.

So we the public who have had bad experiences might sometimes be a little hard to deal with. For the quality shops, a lot comes back on them, especially if they make one mistake. Because of all the shoddy stuff these days, unless you provide perfection, a new customer may think lowly of you for your first mistake, even minor.

[Will]

A guy I worked for years ago dropped this little nugget of wisdom on me:

It's not necessarily the mistake you make but how you react to it that people will remember.

[Cliff R]

"Plus we have the whole internet deal today. The world is full of experts and the forums are full of guys who will argue with you till the death about things they have never experienced in their lives."

I'll second, third and fourth that comment.

The websites are FULL of folks putting up lengthy threads will all sorts of detailed information they are regurgitating from a Google search or some other source. Most don't have as much time building engines as I spent on the crapper last week, but they certainly have a lot of great information and advice to pass on the subject.

There are and have been a few on this Forum, who put up page after page of great information on all sort of topics from engines all the way down to installing a new radiator cap, when in reality, they haven't touched an engine in years and haven't had a Pontiac powered car that moves in decades aside from the mid 80's Grand Am they used as a commuter car before they retired on disability.

Yep, I'm being a little sarcastic, but there is some truth in those words if you read between the lines a little bit.

As far as Pontiac engine building, we're pretty much done with them here. Not because I don't enjoy building, I just don't do enough of them on a large enough scale to make it profitable, at least considering the time, logistics, and space that they take up. I used to build about half a dozen a year, down to maybe one or two at the very most. There just isn't any money in it, unless you are a machine shop, and do most of or all of it in house. The logistics of getting one of these things done correctly, where it's going to be trouble free for the end user, make tons of power, dead solid reliable in any weather on any octane of fuel, etc, is just too involved.

It's almost next to NEVER where you can just pull one down, send everything out, get it all back and assemble it and it's turn key ready to go. It's more often than not weeks, if not months sorting out all the details, replacing a rare cracked head you didn't know about, or finding another block because the one you tried to use was busted in the main saddles, or locating a crankshaft because yours is torn up at the thrust bearing.

Then if you miss something, like the block has a crack nobody found, not even with a pressure test, your just bought the farm on that job, and will loose enough money trying to make it right that it will eat up the profits from the last 5 engines you did that were fine.

Folks, I'm NOT trying to put a big black cloud over this engine building deal, but can tell you for certain, you had better darned well do your homework when it comes to selecting your next engine builder, or where you source out your custom "crate" engine from.

Folks are being pretty kind here in open Forum from what I can see.........Cliff

PS: I'll add here that I get to spend HUNDREDS of hours each month on the phone with folks who are disappointed in their recent engine build. It runs too hot, pings, idles too rough, uses oil, noisy, lousy fuel economy, WAY down on power from what they were expecting, etc, etc. Actually most of their issues can't be solved with a better carburetor, or tweaking their distributor, the root cause is piss-poor parts selection, poor machining, and lack of attention to detail by the engine builder........FWIW

[Nicks67GTO]

Even if youre going to build it yourself, sourcing good machine work can be a challenge. We just lost our best local machine shop due to the guy retiring and selling his equipment. Due to personal expierence I have no trust in the other guys around....like one of them leaving my last SBC builds deck cut .007 short so the pistons stuck out, my rings filed wrong, cam bearing in crooked. Now add in the pontiac factor and forget it. At this point i'm about 99% sure Paul Knippen is getting the call/check later in the year for my build. He's close enough to home and has a great reputation from all I've gathered. It's almost not worth it for me to roll the dice on another machine shop

[Cliff R]

You can get the very best machine work done and use the very best parts, meticulous with assembly, and still get one back.

I few years ago a customer came pulling up to the shop with an engine that we did in the back of his truck. We were quite surprised as we didn't even know he was having issues or bringing it back out of the vehicle. Said it was running just fine then very suddenly lost oil pressure.

We drained the oil, replaced the filter, removed the pan, checked the pump, bearings, etc. We put the pan back on and filled it with fresh oil, rigged up a pressure gauge and ran the pump with a drill. With the cold oil it was up near 80psi with a 60psi Melling pump....huh?

I then took a closer look at the oil filter we removed. It was a Fram filter........you know the REST OF THE STORY!........Cliff

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

You can get the very best machine work done and use the very best parts, meticulous with assembly, and still get one back.

I few years ago a customer came pulling up to the shop with an engine that we did in the back of his truck. We were quite surprised as we didn't even know he was having issues or bringing it back out of the vehicle. Said it was running just fine then very suddenly lost oil pressure.

We drained the oil, replaced the filter, removed the pan, checked the pump, bearings, etc. We put the pan back on and filled it with fresh oil, rigged up a pressure gauge and ran the pump with a drill. With the cold oil it was up near 80psi with a 60psi Melling pump....huh?

I then took a closer look at the oil filter we removed. It was a Fram filter........you know the REST OF THE STORY!........Cliff

Ouch. It's a NAPA 1049 for me.

[blykins]

Yes, you can do everything perfectly on a build and it still come back. Agree totally. I had a set of heads come back to me last month where the Ferrea hollow-stem valves had a gripe with the bronze valve guides. The valves had worn enough clearance (all the way around, not in one direction) to make the Viton valve seal look like it had been bored .030" over. Not my fault, but cost me $$$ as I stood behind the build.

My list of "what to check" has grown over the years until I just sit with measuring tools for hours and hours. I honestly don't know how the average DIY guy can throw an engine together and get years of service out of it. LOL I'm measuring every rod housing, measuring each crank journal in 2-3 spots, measuring every piston, checking the pressure of every valve spring, measuring each valve install height, degreeing the camshaft on multiple lobes, using bore scopes to check port alignment on dual plane intakes, etc, etc. The list just keeps getting longer and longer.

I had a set of Pond FE heads that were soft once. Didn't know it until I got the heads assembled and bolted to the block. I always torque the fasteners and then go back the next day and re-torque...when I went back I saw that the fasteners weren't holding torque....because the aluminum was bulging out around the washer....because the heads weren't tempered and were soft.

Guess what I check now? LOL

[Cliff R]

I ran into an FE block quite a few years back that absolutely and positively would NOT seal up the rings. That darned thing had had so much nickel in it we ended up honing it with a "rock" and putting plain cast rings in there. It still used a quart of oil every 1000 miles or so, but that was WAY better than a quart every 50 miles it was using when first placed in service.

I was a little new to engine building at that time, and trusting a very good machine shop to do the block work, have learned a LOT since that experience.

DIY engine builds are hit and miss. I HATE to see one coming. It's usually better to start with a worn slam out virgin high mileage engine that to go behind someone who tried it themselves and it didn't make the grade........IMHO......Cliff

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

You can't control what happens with your product once it leaves the area in your control.
Dealing with some of the general public is a part of a few of my previous occupations I really will never miss.Although some have become good friends,valued colleagues and mentors.

Dealing with warranty issues on rebuilds led us to use a major re manufacturer for production crate engines to the general public. That too became a nightmare. I won't put a name on them, as they were just putting their name on someone else-es product. It was pure JUNK they were putting out

In house assembly work was very selective who could get that done. Irresponsible employees is always an issue.

I read the writing inferred between the lines. I get the same feel from certain postings.