[tobephoto1]

A shop that restores classic cars, says it will cost me $7,000 to rebuild my 1969 GTO 400 engine.

Theses days...I don't know if that's in line. What is a fair price without upgrades?

[justincampbell]

I'm not sure if that is realistic or not. What I will say(and maybe you have already thought of this) is that a lot of these places seem to send jobs like this to be done at a machine shop and then just mark up the machine shop's bill 30% to 40%. So, you just as well cut out the middle man and go talk to a reputable machine shop yourself.

[Goatracer1]

I agree. There is NO reason you need a restoration shop to build your engine. You need a reliable engine builder. Make sure the shop knows that you want a stock engine rebuild and any internal changes you might want ( reduced compression for todays gas, high performance cam, roller rocker etc.). You can do your own research and detail the engine once it is done. All the restoration shops that I know of send out the engine rebuild to a professional. They have neither the tools nor the skill to do the job correctly. A good shop may even be able to run up your engine and break it in. Send it out yourself and save the money.

[TAKerry]

My last motor build of a 400 slightly warmed over with a first rate job was around $3500. I have one in the shop now and am expecting to pay $4500. Fingers crossed!!

[grandam1979]

If that’s a stock rod .030 over stock type build that is high I think. I assembled and ran a 428 on my test stand for a customer he had the heads done and all machine work done to shortblock and parts. I checked clearance on everything and assembled it. He had less than $3000.00 into it.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

If that’s a stock rod .030 over stock type build that is high I think. I assembled and ran a 428 on my test stand for a customer he had the heads done and all machine work done to shortblock and parts. I checked clearance on everything and assembled it. He had less than $3000.00 into it.

I agree. Hard to say what exactly your engine needs, but if you have a complete 400 that needs a basic overbore and maybe the crank turned down, I can't see how you even get to 7k even upgrading to a roller cam and new rods and pistons.

It does add up quick and it all depends on what you can reuse and what your block, crank, and heads need. Take it to a good machine shop and find out exactly what you need.

[n20ta2]

I brought my 400 to my local machine shop with a used 461 rotating assembly. Here is what he did:
Hot tank block and check for cracks.
Turn crank, balance assembly. Install supplied arp main studs and alighn hone mains.Bore bock .30 over and torque plate hone with my torque plate.
Install cam bearings.
Install kauffman lifter brace.
File fit hastings rings for nitrous.
Install freeze plugs.
Blueprint assembly and assemble short block using my supplied king race bearings.
So my machine shop bill was 2800 labor and I supplied about 3000 in parts not including heads or gaskets for a total of 5,800.00. I'm using kauffman highports so your iron heads will need machining as well. I think if your using your rotating assembly (minus pistons) and heads a fully assembled engine via machine shop would be between 4500-6000. That's basically what it should cost as long as you don't have any major issues.

[b-man]

Here’s what I spent building a 421 HO back in 2015. I built this engine to look like a stock 421 but with a few probably overkill upgrades on the inside. Link to 421 build thread:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=774638

This listing might help give you at least some idea of what a typical competent machine shop charges and the number of new parts required to do the job right.

Of course parts prices and labor will vary depending on where you live and how many upgrades over stock you’re willing to pay for. New forged rods and pistons as well as stainless steel valves, new exhaust valve seats and valve springs are pretty much mandatory to do the job right in my opinion.

I don’t think spending between 6 and 7 grand on your 400 rebuild is unreasonable when you replace all the wear components and upgrade to better components than the engine left the factory with. Reusing the original cast rods, 2-piece valves, valve springs, pushrods and rockers would be out of the question and signs of a cheap budget rebuild.

Most of the parts prices listed are with tax and shipping included.

Parts purchased:

1964 421 Block, crank, heads, oil pan and timing cover - $1475.00

1964 Tri-Power Intake Manifold, Bare - Trade

1964 Water Pump, Rebuilt - $92.00

New Harmonic Balancer - $143.00

1964 GTO OEM Chrome Valve Covers & Repro Breather Cap - $90.00

Rebuild/replate Tri-Power carbs and misc. repro and genuine parts (throttle cable bracket, linkage, vacuum & PCV fittings, choke tubes, air cleaner set) to complete the setup, includes buying a 1964 GTO auto trans center carb outright - $967.67

Misc Tri-Power carb spacers, studs & nuts, base gaskets, restored plug wire looms, OEM 45 deg brass heater hose fitting - $161.50

1962 Pontiac Big Car Aircleaner, Excellent Unrestored Condition - $592.00

16 ea. Manton Pushrods - $230.73

16 ea. 73627-16 Crower 1.5:1 Enduro Stainless Steel Roller Rocker Arms - $478.90
8 ea. Custom 26cc Reverse Dome Ross Racing Pistons w/Pins & Spirolocks - $784.98

1 ea. Cloyes Tru-Roller Timing Set - $86.70
16 ea. H-O Racing VS-11 Valve Springs - Trade
8 ea. Crower Forged Connecting Rods, stock Pontiac dimensions - $900.00
1 ea. NOS Pontiac 9779068 camshaft - $200.00
16ea. Johnson 951R Hydraulic Lifters - $97.00
1 ea. Melling Select 60 psi Oil Pump & Driveshaft - $60.00
1 ea. Butler head gaskets & Misc Engine Gaskets - $75.00
1 ea. BOP Viton Rear Main Seal - $58.00
Misc. Gasket Sealers, Engine Paint, Spark Plugs, Break-In Oil & Gasoline - $110.88

Parts supplied by the machine shop:

8 ea. 6000SG S.I. Stainless Intake Valves - 1.960" x 4.970" - $128.00
8 ea. 6001SG S.I. Stainless Exhaust Valves - 1.660" x 4.970" - $128.00
16 ea. 6523 SBI Cast Valve Guides - $24.00
8 ea. 30677 Durabond Valve Seat - Exhaust - $48.00
2 ea. 30723 Durabond Valve Seat - Intake - $12.00
16 ea. OS810 Pioneer Viton Valve Stem Seals - $28.00
16 ea. 607-STA Isky Valve Spring Retainers - $92.00
16 ea. 101-7101 ARP Rocker Arm Stud Kit - $48.00
8 ea. 90922-1 Crower Custom Piston Pin Bushings - $100.00
16 ea. Helicoil Insert 7/16-14 - $16.00
2 ea. Helicoil Insert 3/8-16 - $1.50
4 ea. EPC18-B Brass Expansion Plug - $8.00
8 ea. 43M5529-010 Engine Pro Moly Piston Ring Set-4.125-010 - $120.00
1 ea. Clevite Main, rod and cam bearings - $287.40

$7644.26 Parts Total

Machine shop labor:

Cook/Clean & Blast Block - $67.00
Magnaflux - $34.00
Check Align Hone - $40.00
Cylinder Bore 2X & Hone W/Torque Plate, 4.120 Did Not Clean, Went To 4.135" - $369.00
Surface Block W/BHJ - 10.215" - $179.00
Block - Final Rinse After Machining - $39.00
Crankshaft Grind-H.P. Middle Spec - $129.00
Crankshaft Heat Treat - $195.00
Rod & Piston Work Bore For Pins Bushings -1.040" - $140.00
Balancing Job - Neutral - Make Flex Plate Neutral - $155.00
Complete Valve Job & Resurface - $309.00
Head Work Set Up Springs And Assemble Heads - $75.00
Clean & Mag Heads W/VJ - $45.00
Install seats - $67.50
Install False Guides - $80.00
Machine For Positive Seals - $36.00
Install Helicoils $20.00
Machine For Screw-In Studs, Helicoil For 7/16, Cut Bosses .250" - $179.00
Machine Valve Head Diameters - Intake 1.930"/Exhaust 1.645" - $96.00


Machine Shop Labor Total - $2254.45

Grand Total, Parts & Machine Shop Labor - $9898.76

As you can see, this rebuild/restoration of an antique Pontiac performance engine easily eclipsed the 10 thousand dollar mark.

I'm sure there are some things that I left out, I had been collecting parts for this 421 for about 5 years and some parts had been sitting in my garage waiting for a place to go for 10 to 20 years. I didn't include what I was charged for cleaning and assembling the engine, this cost is between my friend and myself.

There are a few pieces that I purchased that I really didn't need, but I wanted them so.....they added unnecessary cost. Just the initial price of the 421 block, crank and heads is about $1000 more than you'd pay for a common 400 or 455. The Crower forged rods were purchased way back in the early 1990s, so they probably cost now about 2/3rds of what I paid back then. The Crower roller rockers really weren't a necessity, but finding the correct stamped factory rockers would have cost about $150 anyway and I decided to substitute a top-quality part instead.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by b-man

Here’s what I spent building a 421 HO back in 2015.


Grand Total, Parts & Machine Shop Labor - $9898.76

As you can see, this rebuild/restoration of an antique Pontiac performance engine easily eclipsed the 10 thousand dollar mark.

That's a very thorough description, great info.

Here's where I tend to think the OP can get by for much less.

http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.co...ong_Block.html

That's outright, $5700. From the sound of the original post, the OP may have a complete 400 with block, crank, rods, heads, timing cover, oil filter adapter, oil pan, etc. Depending on what the OP finds when his engine is disassembled and what parts he can and/or wants to reuse, it seems like he could get by for less than the $5700 that Len Williams wants for a complete long block with all those items included?

[b-man]

Originally Posted by i82much

That's a very thorough description, great info.

Here's where I tend to think the OP can get by for much less.

http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.co...ong_Block.html

That's outright, $5700. From the sound of the original post, the OP may have a complete 400 with block, crank, rods, heads, timing cover, oil filter adapter, oil pan, etc. Depending on what the OP finds when his engine is disassembled and what parts he can and/or wants to reuse, it seems like he could get by for less than the $5700 that Len Williams wants for a complete long block with all those items included?

My description includes the cost of a somewhat expensive 421 long block core and some pricey Tri-Power parts ($600 air cleaner), so my nearly 10k outlay isn’t totally representative of what a more common 4-barrel 400 rebuild would cost.

Sifting through my post will show in general what parts and labor costs might be incurred in doing a first-rate rebuild on many Pontiac V8s.

I still think 6 to 7k is what you’re going to end up paying to rebuild it correctly from the carb right down to the oil pan using new parts and top quality machine work.

Anyone looking into a quality rebuild should make up a detailed list of what parts they want replaced during the rebuilding process and what machining operations they expect to be performed. Then ask the builder to detail exactly what parts and machine work will be included in their price. A detailed list, not simply being told they’re going to include and do everything.

For 7k you should expect a ton of new high quality parts and machine work that includes boring and honing the block using a torque plate.

[grandam1979]

Originally Posted by b-man

Here’s what I spent building a 421 HO back in 2015. I built this engine to look like a stock 421 but with a few probably overkill upgrades on the inside. Link to 421 build thread:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=774638

This listing might help give you at least some idea of what a typical competent machine shop charges and the number of new parts required to do the job right.

Of course parts prices and labor will vary depending on where you live and how many upgrades over stock you’re willing to pay for. New forged rods and pistons as well as stainless steel valves, new exhaust valve seats and valve springs are pretty much mandatory to do the job right in my opinion.

I don’t think spending between 6 and 7 grand on your 400 rebuild is unreasonable when you replace all the wear components and upgrade to better components than the engine left the factory with. Reusing the original cast rods, 2-piece valves, valve springs, pushrods and rockers would be out of the question and signs of a cheap budget rebuild.

Most of the parts prices listed are with tax and shipping included.

Parts purchased:

1964 421 Block, crank, heads, oil pan and timing cover - $1475.00

1964 Tri-Power Intake Manifold, Bare - Trade

1964 Water Pump, Rebuilt - $92.00

New Harmonic Balancer - $143.00

1964 GTO OEM Chrome Valve Covers & Repro Breather Cap - $90.00

Rebuild/replate Tri-Power carbs and misc. repro and genuine parts (throttle cable bracket, linkage, vacuum & PCV fittings, choke tubes, air cleaner set) to complete the setup, includes buying a 1964 GTO auto trans center carb outright - $967.67

Misc Tri-Power carb spacers, studs & nuts, base gaskets, restored plug wire looms, OEM 45 deg brass heater hose fitting - $161.50

1962 Pontiac Big Car Aircleaner, Excellent Unrestored Condition - $592.00

16 ea. Manton Pushrods - $230.73

16 ea. 73627-16 Crower 1.5:1 Enduro Stainless Steel Roller Rocker Arms - $478.90
8 ea. Custom 26cc Reverse Dome Ross Racing Pistons w/Pins & Spirolocks - $784.98

1 ea. Cloyes Tru-Roller Timing Set - $86.70
16 ea. H-O Racing VS-11 Valve Springs - Trade
8 ea. Crower Forged Connecting Rods, stock Pontiac dimensions - $900.00
1 ea. NOS Pontiac 9779068 camshaft - $200.00
16ea. Johnson 951R Hydraulic Lifters - $97.00
1 ea. Melling Select 60 psi Oil Pump & Driveshaft - $60.00
1 ea. Butler head gaskets & Misc Engine Gaskets - $75.00
1 ea. BOP Viton Rear Main Seal - $58.00
Misc. Gasket Sealers, Engine Paint, Spark Plugs, Break-In Oil & Gasoline - $110.88

Parts supplied by the machine shop:

8 ea. 6000SG S.I. Stainless Intake Valves - 1.960" x 4.970" - $128.00
8 ea. 6001SG S.I. Stainless Exhaust Valves - 1.660" x 4.970" - $128.00
16 ea. 6523 SBI Cast Valve Guides - $24.00
8 ea. 30677 Durabond Valve Seat - Exhaust - $48.00
2 ea. 30723 Durabond Valve Seat - Intake - $12.00
16 ea. OS810 Pioneer Viton Valve Stem Seals - $28.00
16 ea. 607-STA Isky Valve Spring Retainers - $92.00
16 ea. 101-7101 ARP Rocker Arm Stud Kit - $48.00
8 ea. 90922-1 Crower Custom Piston Pin Bushings - $100.00
16 ea. Helicoil Insert 7/16-14 - $16.00
2 ea. Helicoil Insert 3/8-16 - $1.50
4 ea. EPC18-B Brass Expansion Plug - $8.00
8 ea. 43M5529-010 Engine Pro Moly Piston Ring Set-4.125-010 - $120.00
1 ea. Clevite Main, rod and cam bearings - $287.40

$7644.26 Parts Total

Machine shop labor:

Cook/Clean & Blast Block - $67.00
Magnaflux - $34.00
Check Align Hone - $40.00
Cylinder Bore 2X & Hone W/Torque Plate, 4.120 Did Not Clean, Went To 4.135" - $369.00
Surface Block W/BHJ - 10.215" - $179.00
Block - Final Rinse After Machining - $39.00
Crankshaft Grind-H.P. Middle Spec - $129.00
Crankshaft Heat Treat - $195.00
Rod & Piston Work Bore For Pins Bushings -1.040" - $140.00
Balancing Job - Neutral - Make Flex Plate Neutral - $155.00
Complete Valve Job & Resurface - $309.00
Head Work Set Up Springs And Assemble Heads - $75.00
Clean & Mag Heads W/VJ - $45.00
Install seats - $67.50
Install False Guides - $80.00
Machine For Positive Seals - $36.00
Install Helicoils $20.00
Machine For Screw-In Studs, Helicoil For 7/16, Cut Bosses .250" - $179.00
Machine Valve Head Diameters - Intake 1.930"/Exhaust 1.645" - $96.00


Machine Shop Labor Total - $2254.45

Grand Total, Parts & Machine Shop Labor - $9898.76

As you can see, this rebuild/restoration of an antique Pontiac performance engine easily eclipsed the 10 thousand dollar mark.

I'm sure there are some things that I left out, I had been collecting parts for this 421 for about 5 years and some parts had been sitting in my garage waiting for a place to go for 10 to 20 years. I didn't include what I was charged for cleaning and assembling the engine, this cost is between my friend and myself.

There are a few pieces that I purchased that I really didn't need, but I wanted them so.....they added unnecessary cost. Just the initial price of the 421 block, crank and heads is about $1000 more than you'd pay for a common 400 or 455. The Crower forged rods were purchased way back in the early 1990s, so they probably cost now about 2/3rds of what I paid back then. The Crower roller rockers really weren't a necessity, but finding the correct stamped factory rockers would have cost about $150 anyway and I decided to substitute a top-quality part instead.

A lot of your cost was buying parts looks like over half. He has his engine already.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

A lot of your cost was buying parts looks like over half. He has his engine already.

Note that the cost to check, clean and assemble as well as break in the cam on a test stand wasn’t included in my list of expenses.

In most cases that adds around $1500 to the complete build cost.

[400 Lemans]

http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1177b This kit was a little over 800 bucks a month ago. Now look.

[John Milner]

I just rebuilt the YS 400 engine for my 71 GTO. I assembled the engine myself. I also machined and re-worked the heads myself. So, I was able to save some money doing that. It looks like I have right at $2,200 in everything. This is how I spent the money:

Parts:
Main bearings: $85.99, Rod bearings: $61.99, Gasket set: $95.99, Link Belt Timing set: $23.99, Valve Springs: $141.99, Rings: $80.99, Speed Pro forged pistons: $380, Water pump: $63.99, Oil pump: $66.37, Hardened oil pump shaft: $12.99, BOP 1 pc pan gasket: $59.99, Best rope seal: $19.99, Ferrea Stainless valves: $190, ARP Rod bolts: $80.31, Cam/lifters: $167.83. Parts total: $1,532.41

Machine work:
Vat, bore, hone, install cam bearings: $250, Deck block: $125, Turn crank: $125, Resize rods, $100, Press on pistons: $40. Machine Shop Total: $640.00

I cleaned and reused the timing cover, valley pan, balancer, oil pan, valve covers, bolts, push rods, retainers, keepers, windage tray, rocker splash shields and rocker arms.

You could spend more money by balancing the rotating assembly, line hoaning, head work, and having someone assemble the engine. Plus you could spend a lot more on different parts, such as hydraulic roller camshaft/lifters, forged rods, more expensive pistons, etc.

This engine is nothing more than a stock rebuild for a driver.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1177b This kit was a little over 800 bucks a month ago. Now look.

Crazy isn't it? This whole mess is affecting everyone. I've already been at the point of just not ordering stuff when it wasn't in stock. Now I'm getting to a point of not buying anything until these prices get back to normal, don't care if it's in stock or not.

That may or may not happen but it will at least be another 3 years of this crap until we find out. I see more companies going out of business the next couple years if this keeps up. Shame.

[Formulas]

Your much better off directing a engine builder yourself because a restoration shop will probably go the cheapest route IE. when the builder askes restow shop what do you want,
They will say bone stock cheaply so as to maximise their profit, they may not say last part out loud

and what that means is reused stock rods not even resized hanging on 8 eyebrow cast pistons, knurle valve guides with stock valve seals marginal valve grind and reused stock springs luckily shimmed, chinese lifters that will malfunction on your third drive

you most likely will end up dissatisfied with this approach and feel cheated

I am a fan of doing it yourself but i started doing that around 1976 you will stub your toe now and again but overall its worth it

[389]

You should have a few real good engine builders in Texas..

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by 389

You should have a few real good engine builders in Texas..

Len Williams is in Eastern central Oklahoma, a bit of a drive from Austin, butNOT for the amount of $$$ saved for absolute high quality work!!!

Someone did post here, recently, that talked to him. He, at that time was having difficulty getting some parts, slowing down his normal build time to a crawl. I don’t know about now though....

[ftwmlp]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Len Williams is in Eastern central Oklahoma, a bit of a drive from Austin, butNOT for the amount of $$$ saved for absolute high quality work!!!

Someone did post here, recently, that talked to him. He, at that time was having difficulty getting some parts, slowing down his normal build time to a crawl. I don’t know about now though....

I chose Len Williams for my 389 rebuild, mostly because he was recommended in Jim Hand's book and because he is close to DFW, TX just outside of Tulsa, OK. The drive to Tulsa is not bad now that all the interchanges have been completed on North I35, should be able to do it in about 7-1/2 hrs (one way) from Austin. I have about $5800 in my build, including some extra for a sleeve to repair some bad rust in the "period correct" engine I bought used. Could not be happier with the quality of the product he produced for me. He has since moved this shop from the location I visited, but as I understand it, just a few miles away. If you are fan of old time machine shops, with "vintage" American Made machines, his was just that.
Mike Pearson

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by 389

You should have a few real good engine builders in Texas..

Barney Moravits @ T & P Machine in San Antonio, WAS a good Pontiac engine builder. Built lots of racing engines. Billy Joe Moravits was RU in Stock, at the '78 Tyler IHRA points race, where my wife won the bracket class.

Assuming that Billy Joe probably ran several Barney built engines, over the years, in various classes, at tracks all over Texas.

Read that Barney retired. But, if I were you, I'd try to contact either Barney or Billy Joe, & ask them who they'd recommend. Assuming most Pontiac engine builders know the others in their area.

You can do a search here for Barney Moravits, & find him mentioned several times.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=566620

I don't have CURRENT contact info for either guy.

https://www.bbb.org/us/tx/san-antoni...hop-0825-20465

This listing shows phone numbers for both guys. Have no idea if the numbers are current.

https://clustrmaps.com/person/Moravits-2ateks