[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

What year/engine?? I'm curious. We got away from new cars many years ago. Last new camaros we owned were 2002 4th gens, LS engines with regular spin on filters. Haven't touched anything new since so I'm out of the loop on that deal.

I'm not who you're replying to, but I will chime in to say that the canister type filters are very common among European cars, and always have been. Many if not most BMWs, Mini, Mercedes, Porsche, VW, Audi, Volvo, and others have been using them for decades or longer. My '98 BMW uses that type of filter and it makes oil changes MUCH less messy, and for that reason alone I'm a fan.

I'm assuming hurryinhoosier62's wife drives a V6 Camaro, as I'm pretty sure the V8 models all use a metal filter underneath the engine. My friend's 2022 Camaro ZL1-1LE (supercharged 6.2L) uses a spin-on metal filter underneath the engine.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

I'm not who you're replying to, but I will chime in to say that the canister type filters are very common among European cars, and always have been. Many if not most BMWs, Mini, Mercedes, Porsche, VW, Audi, Volvo, and others have been using them for decades or longer. My '98 BMW uses that type of filter and it makes oil changes MUCH less messy, and for that reason alone I'm a fan.

I'm assuming hurryinhoosier62's wife drives a V6 Camaro, as I'm pretty sure the V8 models all use a metal filter underneath the engine. My friend's 2022 Camaro ZL1-1LE (supercharged 6.2L) uses a spin-on metal filter underneath the engine.

I guess I'm having a hard time comprehending how it makes the oil change less messy because the last time I messed with one was on a classic car of course, and those things were horrible. They leaked with age, and pulling the bolt out starts a gush of oil, runs all over the cannister, then you have to pull the nasty filter out and clean the inside of the can etc.... It was a total mess.

I think there are still 2 or 3 of those things in boxes up on the mezzanine because those engines were switched over to a spin on filter, lol.

I'm assuming they have improved those things in some way to make them less messy.

As you can imagine, I'm totally out of the loop of anything foreign, so I'm unaware those other brands have been using them for decades.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

No hair trigger. Not sure where that came from.
.

Tom V.

Really!!! 4 pages mostly refuting that the guy must be wrong, and I must be too because I linked to it. Don't kill the messenger.

The title of the thread:

Finally, the commonsense reason not to prefill an oil filter.

As I said previously, how many actually listened to the video?

When it comes to oil and filter discussions, I present facts that are documented, usually by research and testing. The opponents usually base a statement on rumors they heard from who knows where.

I.E. "I heard that the TP filters remove additives from the oil"

"I heard that the TP disintegrates, plugging up the oil galleys"

"Microscopic dirt won't hurt an engine"

"The only use for by pass filters is OTR trucks"

Just 4 examples off the top of my head.

No one appointed me anything Tom, I do the same thing you do, and monitor conversations on the board, commenting if I think I can help someone.

Actually I have kept a pretty low profile when it comes to commenting on by pass oil filters for a couple years, due to all the negative responses it usually elicits. As soon as I do express an opinion about that subject, the OH NO, another by pass filter thread comments start.

I don't particularly like Holley carbs, but I don't pass on judgement anyone that does.

I worked on most every car that has been made in the last 50 years, but I don't hate on fords and chryslers because I think their engineering leaves a lot to be desired. There have been dodge threads on this board that go on for weeks extolling all the virtues of challengers, and here I thought this was a Pontiac board. So in summation I see stuff on here that aren't my favorite subjects, and I just pass on by, and keep my opinions to myself.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I guess I'm having a hard time comprehending how it makes the oil change less messy because the last time I messed with one was on a classic car of course, and those things were horrible. They leaked with age, and pulling the bolt out starts a gush of oil, runs all over the cannister, then you have to pull the nasty filter out and clean the inside of the can etc.... It was a total mess.

I think there are still 2 or 3 of those things in boxes up on the mezzanine because those engines were switched over to a spin on filter, lol.

I'm assuming they have improved those things in some way to make them less messy.

As you can imagine, I'm totally out of the loop of anything foreign, so I'm unaware those other brands have been using them for decades.

Perhaps you are thinking they are like the old school canister filters on American cars. The modern version of the canister filter is different. See photo below of my BMW engine. To remove the filter, you just unscrew the black plastic cap and the filter comes out with it. This is how most European cars are set up. Very easy to get it out without getting a single drip of oil anywhere.

[78w72]

the funny thing in all these posts is- when the horse is being beaten, its always mentioned about the damage being caused by not using a bypass filter, some using the term "ruin" is just summing up all the "premature damage" , claiming that’s "never ever been said” is false. every post about this subject has claims like in the recent post above- "it does cause premature wear if left in the oil. and it wears the upper rings out first, then descends into the oil sump to cause more wear on internal parts. It does a number on rings, piston skirts, and cylinders," or this one that uses the word ruin... "I can say that the fine particulate that is so easily dismissed here as benign, is anything but. It will ruin a race engine in one outing." ... i know an owner of a big machine shop that builds most all the local dirt track, stock car & big mud bog & pulling truck engines... he has never used a bypass filter, just good quality spin on filters & has never "ruinded an engine is one outing! most his engines last all season or multiple seasons & they win races.... he would laugh at putting a bypass filter on a race car.

the "wear" thats being caused is greatly exaggerated, yet there is never an acknowledgement or reply when the "detractors" point out the reality that the claimed wear is so minimal its almost irrelevant because millions of cars reach 300k+ miles easily on normal filters with no evidence of this claimed damage, no oil burning or consumption, no loss of power etc etc etc. so, what exactly does all this "wear" do to the average car in 100-250k+ mileage range? apparently not much because cars are going the same mileage & more as those with bypass filters. Also not really a big deal saving on some oil changes, $25 for a gallon of brand name synthetic oil & a SPIN ON filter goes 7500+ miles.

also no reply to the points made about how oil is designed to suspend these microscopic particles to avoid major wear, most clearances in engines are much bigger than these microscopic particles... if they don’t touch the metal surfaces they aren’t causing wear, or extremely little, providing the oil is changed as needed.

no mention or reply to all the cars that do 300-500k miles or even... 1 million miles! all on normal filters. i just posted a vid on toyotas going over 1 million miles. how is that possible if all this wear is happening? im sure if you did in depth testing or mic'd all bearings & surfaces when disassembled you would find some evidence of wear, but its not causing enough for all the constant alarm & hype.

Fact is that on a decent maintained vehicle 99% of them do fine on normal filters for more miles than the rest of the car will usually last! manufacturers clearly have figured out how to get hundreds of thousands of miles out of their engines with normal filters. that goes for older classic cars to modern cars, I have torn apart mid 70’s Pontiac engines with 80k miles of bad maint & crappy oil that still show hone marks on the cylinder walls & almost no ridge…

Heres my disclaimer that I state in every thread, bypass filters work great but they have their place, which will never be on the average modern daily driver car or 99+% of classic cars, hot rods or race cars. if you want to use a bypass because it makes you feel all warm & fuzzy, have at it. but can we please stop telling everyone that doesn’t use or want them about all the wear & damage a spin on filter is causing to their engines? That would be great.

Have a nice day

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Did anyone bother to read the picture ...

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Here's the video, flip to 11:48 ...

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

As I said previously, how many actually listened to the video?

First one had me itching to say something.
Three different posts now, I have no choice.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

Perhaps you are thinking they are like the old school canister filters on American cars. The modern version of the canister filter is different. See photo below of my BMW engine. To remove the filter, you just unscrew the black plastic cap and the filter comes out with it. This is how most European cars are set up. Very easy to get it out without getting a single drip of oil anywhere.

Yeah I'm imagining the old school canister because that's all I've messed with, and having a hard time seeing how it would be designed in a way that it's not messy anymore. Not that I don't believe you, I'm sure they are an improvement from 60 years ago, I guess my brain just needs to see one come apart lol.

Thanks for the pic.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 242177P

First one had me itching to say something.
Three different posts now, I have no choice.

WOW you have me pinned to the ground, can't argue with that.

Did you watch the video and listen to what the technician said?

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Yeah I'm imagining the old school canister because that's all I've messed with, and having a hard time seeing how it would be designed in a way that it's not messy anymore. Not that I don't believe you, I'm sure they are an improvement from 60 years ago, I guess my brain just needs to see one come apart lol.

Thanks for the pic.

If you're curious, here is a video that shows what the process is typically like: LINK

[hgerhardt]

My dad's Cadillac CTS has a V6 with canister filter; probably the same as the Camaro. It's adjacent to the LH valve cover and serviced from above.

The modern canister filters have a valve in the bottom of the housing so that when you unscrew the cap, the oil drains into the oil pan, leaving the canister empty. The filter stays attached to the cap, so it comes out with it. You get your fingers oily when pulling off the filter element from the cap, but certainly less mess than removing a spin-on filter.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Really!!! 4 pages mostly refuting that the guy must be wrong, and I must be too because I linked to it. Don't kill the messenger.

The title of the thread:

Finally, the commonsense reason not to prefill an oil filter.

I don't particularly like Holley carbs, but I don't pass on judgement anyone that does.

The only thing wrong with this topic is the name calling.
THE COMMON SENSE reason not.........................

So if I have filled the oil filter for 50+ years, the implication for me and many others is that we have no common sense.
The first thing in the Topic is like a dig on others you do pre-fill filters. Why couldn't the title be "WHY I do not prefill a oil filter."

The title sets the tone of the thread.

Peace to you too. Wording does make a difference.

Tom V.

Would be nice if everyone could be friendly

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by hgerhardt

My dad's Cadillac CTS has a V6 with canister filter; probably the same as the Camaro. It's adjacent to the LH valve cover and serviced from above.

The modern canister filters have a valve in the bottom of the housing so that when you unscrew the cap, the oil drains into the oil pan, leaving the canister empty. The filter stays attached to the cap, so it comes out with it. You get your fingers oily when pulling off the filter element from the cap, but certainly less mess than removing a spin-on filter.

Yeah that makes sense. The part where you unscrew the cap allowing the oil to drain back, and the fact that it's upside down on top of the engine.

I'm still imagining these things upside down (the other direction) and full of oil under the engine that makes a big mess LOL

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by 78w72

the funny thing in all these posts is- when the horse is being beaten, its always mentioned about the damage being caused by not using a bypass filter, some using the term "ruin" is just summing up all the "premature damage" , claiming that’s "never ever been said” is false. every post about this subject has claims like in the recent post above- "it does cause premature wear if left in the oil. and it wears the upper rings out first, then descends into the oil sump to cause more wear on internal parts. It does a number on rings, piston skirts, and cylinders," or this one that uses the word ruin... "I can say that the fine particulate that is so easily dismissed here as benign, is anything but. It will ruin a race engine in one outing." ... i know an owner of a big machine shop that builds most all the local dirt track, stock car & big mud bog & pulling truck engines... he has never used a bypass filter, just good quality spin on filters & has never "ruinded an engine is one outing! most his engines last all season or multiple seasons & they win races.... he would laugh at putting a bypass filter on a race car.

the "wear" thats being caused is greatly exaggerated, yet there is never an acknowledgement or reply when the "detractors" point out the reality that the claimed wear is so minimal its almost irrelevant because millions of cars reach 300k+ miles easily on normal filters with no evidence of this claimed damage, no oil burning or consumption, no loss of power etc etc etc. so, what exactly does all this "wear" do to the average car in 100-250k+ mileage range? apparently not much because cars are going the same mileage & more as those with bypass filters. Also not really a big deal saving on some oil changes, $25 for a gallon of brand name synthetic oil & a SPIN ON filter goes 7500+ miles.

also no reply to the points made about how oil is designed to suspend these microscopic particles to avoid major wear, most clearances in engines are much bigger than these microscopic particles... if they don’t touch the metal surfaces they aren’t causing wear, or extremely little, providing the oil is changed as needed.

no mention or reply to all the cars that do 300-500k miles or even... 1 million miles! all on normal filters. i just posted a vid on toyotas going over 1 million miles. how is that possible if all this wear is happening? im sure if you did in depth testing or mic'd all bearings & surfaces when disassembled you would find some evidence of wear, but its not causing enough for all the constant alarm & hype.

Fact is that on a decent maintained vehicle 99% of them do fine on normal filters for more miles than the rest of the car will usually last! manufacturers clearly have figured out how to get hundreds of thousands of miles out of their engines with normal filters. that goes for older classic cars to modern cars, I have torn apart mid 70’s Pontiac engines with 80k miles of bad maint & crappy oil that still show hone marks on the cylinder walls & almost no ridge…

Heres my disclaimer that I state in every thread, bypass filters work great but they have their place, which will never be on the average modern daily driver car or 99+% of classic cars, hot rods or race cars. if you want to use a bypass because it makes you feel all warm & fuzzy, have at it. but can we please stop telling everyone that doesn’t use or want them about all the wear & damage a spin on filter is causing to their engines? That would be great.

Have a nice day

I fail to see your logic on most of the points, but you must be right, I don't know anywhere as many alleged experts as you do.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Yeah that makes sense. The part where you unscrew the cap allowing the oil to drain back, and the fact that it's upside down on top of the engine.

I'm still imagining these things upside down (the other direction) and full of oil under the engine that makes a big mess LOL

Yep, my friend has a '65 Impala w/283ci that has the old school style. Not fun.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The only thing wrong with this topic is the name calling.
THE COMMON SENSE reason not.........................

So if I have filled the oil filter for 50+ years, the implication for me and many others is that we have no common sense.
The first thing in the Topic is like a dig on others you do pre-fill filters. Why couldn't the title be "WHY I do not prefill a oil filter."

The title sets the tone of the thread.

Peace to you too. Wording does make a difference.

Tom V.

Would be nice if everyone could be friendly

Actually the common sense was supported by the man that made the video, sorry you take offense at a title, but it wasn't meant as a slight, just that there was an actual reason he was doing what he did.

I never realized COMMON SENSE was name calling. Thanks for the education Tom.

[Tom Vaught]

"Common Sense" How about we both move on? Otherwise it looks like an attack when one person singles out another person for their reply.

Just a suggestion.

Tom V.

[b-man]