[TimeWarp]

Originally Posted by slowbird

So the heads came out in 08-09 right? They sold out at some point and according to you weren't available for 3 yrs, correct? So all progress/developement just stop for those 3 yrs? What happened to all the people that owned the heads during those years. They parked their cars?
Im sorry but you can't just subtract those years.

Actually you can subtract those years. No matter what Bill might have been doing fiddling on the computer with design ideas...those heads were not out racing. They were not out tuning.

What happened to all of them? Some were built. Bill just posted a list a few pages back of known people running with the heads that had some pretty good results over what they ran before. Others may be running but they don't post on the PY forum, or they chose not to become involved in this debate. And still others may be sitting on someone's shelf.

The point is there have been one, maybe two people here that were unhappy with the CV-1 heads and posted about it. That happens. One guy bought a BBC. The other doesnt seem to post over here any longer. Maybe there are more?

Either way, unlike continued production AND racing of E-heads, plus more E-heads made even early on...the CV-1 racing program has been idle. People have lives and in some cases that might have interfered.

All I'm saying is.........let the CV-1's come again. If they do well, then great. If not....then they'll die away naturally.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by TimeWarp

Yes, Slick is correct. I have a turbo car that made some good hp with a set of E-heads. Not in the 1400-1500 range, but had I turned up the boost it could have. And then I could have hauled it home in a few buckets. lol

Sorry about getting the HP numbers wrong, we talked about lots of stuff, I was trying to absorb it all and my feeble old brain must have moved some numbers around.

I could be off base, but I think that the CV-1 objections can boil down to a few points:

1) Early promoters bragging about the head's capabilities. Standards which apparently were not met. I wasn't reading those posts back then, but repeated posts suggesting that was the case have made it plain.

2) The head has canted valves unlike any traditional factory Pontiac cylinder head. The inline valves are a key feature of the Pontiac V8, and deprting from this design feature leads many to say that it's then no longer a Pontiac, but a hideous breed (hybrid).

To that point, I think if the head to be accepted as a Pontiac head option, it had better outperform all inline heads. Period. If not, then what's the point of giving up an original design feature, one frequently used as a reason (an excuse?) for Pontiac engines not performing as well as hemispherical headed and canted valve engines of the competition. We give up that underdog point without unquestioned superiority over the E-head, Tiger, HP, Wenzler, etc.

3) The head will not accept a traditional Pontiac valve cover. Don't dismiss this point. A lot of guys need a Pontiac engine to have the traditional Pontiac engine look.

4) As John Marcella has frequently pointed out, basic design architecture could have been done differently. Personally, I have no idea, but Marcella knows his trade very well and continually proves it. Had his ideas been incorporated in the design, who knows, maybe the head would show the utter dominance that was hoped for by the inventor.

5) The willingness to go down into the gutter and argue with the head's detractors, by the head's promoters. I don't care how skilled, or intelligent you are. When you reply the way you do, and so repeatedly, it makes one wonder, do you not know how petty you sound, and "shouldn't you be doing something productive?

Is it possible to simply accept this, move on and produce some awesome performance parts for the rest of us?

[mysticmissle]

Well put stu! Sorry you got into this yet?

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by TimeWarp

Actually you can subtract those years. No matter what Bill might have been doing fiddling on the computer with design ideas...those heads were not out racing. They were not out tuning.

What happened to all of them? Some were built. Bill just posted a list a few pages back of known people running with the heads that had some pretty good results over what they ran before. Others may be running but they don't post on the PY forum, or they chose not to become involved in this debate. And still others may be sitting on someone's shelf.

The point is there have been one, maybe two people here that were unhappy with the CV-1 heads and posted about it. That happens. One guy bought a BBC. The other doesnt seem to post over here any longer. Maybe there are more?

Either way, unlike continued production AND racing of E-heads, plus more E-heads made even early on...the CV-1 racing program has been idle. People have lives and in some cases that might have interfered.

All I'm saying is.........let the CV-1's come again. If they do well, then great. If not....then they'll die away naturally.

Iron heads havent been produced in what 30+ years but there is still development going on. You can't subtract those 3 yrs just because the head wasn't in production. There was still 80 some sets out there. During that 3 years. And yes they were guys out racing with that head during those 3 years! Im sure they are happy to see you dismiss them though.

[Slick]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

Well put stu! Sorry you got into this yet?

Actually, I've learned a LOT from you, Jeff, and many of the guys here, just by lurking. I keep coming back, hoping for more than just tidbits of info. Usually, disappointed. but every once in awhile an outstanding thread shows up, like Mike Leech's build thread, that make it time well spent.

Stuart

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Slick

Sorry about getting the HP numbers wrong, we talked about lots of stuff, I was trying to absorb it all and my feeble old brain must have moved some numbers around.

I could be off base, but I think that the CV-1 objections can boil down to a few points:

1) Early promoters bragging about the head's capabilities. Standards which apparently were not met. I wasn't reading those posts back then, but repeated posts suggesting that was the case have made it plain.

2) The head has canted valves unlike any traditional factory Pontiac cylinder head. The inline valves are a key feature of the Pontiac V8, and deprting from this design feature leads many to say that it's then no longer a Pontiac, but a hideous breed (hybrid).

To that point, I think if the head to be accepted as a Pontiac head option, it had better outperform all inline heads. Period. If not, then what's the point of giving up an original design feature, one frequently used as a reason (an excuse?) for Pontiac engines not performing as well as hemispherical headed and canted valve engines of the competition. We give up that underdog point without unquestioned superiority over the E-head, Tiger, HP, Wenzler, etc.

3) The head will not accept a traditional Pontiac valve cover. Don't dismiss this point. A lot of guys need a Pontiac engine to have the traditional Pontiac engine look.

4) As John Marcella has frequently pointed out, basic design architecture could have been done differently. Personally, I have no idea, but Marcella knows his trade very well and continually proves it. Had his ideas been incorporated in the design, who knows, maybe the head would show the utter dominance that was hoped for by the inventor.

5) The willingness to go down into the gutter and argue with the head's detractors, by the head's promoters. I don't care how skilled, or intelligent you are. When you reply the way you do, and so repeatedly, it makes one wonder, do you not know how petty you sound, and "shouldn't you be doing something productive?

Is it possible to simply accept this, move on and produce some awesome performance parts for the rest of us?

Where is the like button!

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Paul,
Since you seem to know. What are my beliefs?

So just what is your version of the truth?

Stan

Your beliefs are doing math equations which you are very good at.

There is only one truth.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by TimeWarp

And...if you noticed not every part of that post referred to you Paul. Some parts of it were in general and referred to the whole group of people who have felt it necessary to bash CV-1's. The word "you" can be aimed at an individual, and also be aimed at the collective group. Sorry for the english syntax lecture.

Actually the cheerleading part was mostly what I directed at you. Because if ANYONE has been cheerleading it is those shouting EHTTFMF!!!. Like you did just a few minutes ago.

Recognize cheerleading when you see it Paul? Or should we get all of you short skirts to go along with the shout?

Cheerleaders don't know how to play the game....your post clearly stated "you" referring to me. In all fairness now Wilke and Stan need to jump all over you for making vague statements that you can change the meaning of later.....atleast that's what they both did to me... Wilke even told me it was chicken st#t.....you I'm sure you'll be hearing from them shortly.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by TimeWarp

Yes, because we know there are whole threads devoted to bashing E-heads? Whole groups of people jumping on E-heads is it?



Again, you won't even admit your own bias or having participated in any of it.

.

Atleast you are consistly wrong..... there has been threads devoted to bashing E-heads. Ask Calvin he started atleast one of them.

My bias is the truth, not distorted facts.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Helping Paul sell more e-heads.

Shouldn't you be busy getting all over TimeWarp for making chicken sh#t vague posts that he can change the meaning of later? Or because he's a squad member it's okay?

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Atleast you are consistly wrong..... there has been threads devoted to bashing E-heads. Ask Calvin he started atleast one of them.

My bias is the truth, not distorted facts.

Paul,

Not bashing, curious with all the experts on why the head is a great race head.

Looking forward to your opinion in that thread, it's a technical discussion.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by JSPONT

Wow I just read a novel!
Why does everyone compare to junk mass production Eheads? That's setting the bar low don't ya think?

Because they can't hang with the big boy heads??

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by TimeWarp

Dan - You are correct to an extent. But I dont feel to this extent. And again, Edelbrock sold a LOT of heads, so they proliferated regardless.

Jack, they were out of production for at least 3 years. Meaning none being produced. Very few (compared to E-heads) out there. How many do you know racing right now?

Mike, thank you for the definition. But I was aware of it, and my whole point was that whether you use the word badger, harrass, or bash..........when folks have done it against the CV-1 head or people talking in favor of it......it was often just called "asking questions", or "stating facts".

But I'M badgering? lol

They were not out of production for three years.

A lot of CV1 racers jumped ship. Some went BBC, some changed heads, and some went and bought boats.

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

...some went and bought boats.

Damn you don't forget any of the saga...

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

Paul,

Not bashing, curious with all the experts on why the head is a great race head.

Looking forward to your opinion in that thread, it's a technical discussion.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Done! Thanks for the invite.

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by slowbird

So the heads came out in 08-09 right? They sold out at some point and according to you weren't available for 3 yrs, correct? So all progress/developement just stop for those 3 yrs? What happened to all the people that owned the heads during those years. They parked their cars?
Im sorry but you can't just subtract those years.

... yes, my development anyways stopped 3yrs ago, the only thing i was able to finish in that timeframe was my pumpgas 428 engine, and the 572 is still not completed ...

... the bulk of head sales went on street cars, not race cars ... and considering the head was never advertised as a race head that makes sense ...

... and Robin got away from racing during this time frame and he was one our top guys then, so we have not done much during that period, Kelvin Poe and Larry Quinn are the top guys i believe during this period ...

... so this certainly played a part to say the least ...

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

They were not out of production for three years.

A lot of CV1 racers jumped ship. Some went BBC, some changed heads, and some went and bought boats.

And some are wishing they never switched from EHeads, right Jack 😉

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Shouldn't you be busy getting all over TimeWarp for making chicken sh#t vague posts that he can change the meaning of later? Or because he's a squad member it's okay?

You dont like what he has to say paul? Then you admonish him paul... Isnt he an E-head owner? You seem upset. Maybe he will get all straightened out and go away once you get thru with him.

Besides others have corrected some things already. I dont agree with everything he's said.

[Anderson Port Development]

Originally Posted by 65nss4spdGTO

And some are wishing they never switched from EHeads, right Jack 😉

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

... hey, it's not his fault, it's the car, that GTO has been programmed to think EHTTFMR's forever now, so when that 2nd stage turns on it knows the E-Heads can't handle that much N20 and the car automatically hits the brakes !!! ...

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

You dont like what he has to say paul? Then you admonish him paul... Isnt he an E-head owner? You seem upset. Maybe he will get all straightened out and go away once you get thru with him.

Besides others have corrected some things already. I dont agree with everything he's said.

Hi Bruce, no he doesn't have me upset...maybe a little annoyed. I was just referring to all his vague comments that he made so he could change the meaning of them later. You told me I was chicken sh#t for doing that and only thought it would be fair for you to do the same for him.