[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by screamingchief

Looking at that part no. & knowing the GMPP based offerings pretty well,and based on your description,my money is on that being one of the GM corporate "rocket" racing blocks,which is pretty much just a beefy SBC block,and not a true oldsmobile V-8 block.

But I could be wrong.

Bret P.

There was an engine block called a "Rocket Block" was indeed a small block Chevy, not EVEN an Olds. There were 2 variations (I think) THis block had the 400 SBC 4.125 bore, w/ siamesed cylinders, a raised cam, and other H.D. goodies.

You need to remember that "Olds" was the official car of NHRA for quite a long time, then came Pontiac, then came 9/11...

There was a guy that won one NHRA Pro Stock race, w/ an actual Olds powerplant, can't remember his name...Dave??? That engine was an original diesel block, if my memory is working...not a factory beefed up Olds deal.
I can't believe that Olds yanked the bore on a 350 out to 4.3 something, I wish that guy had worked at Pontiac. I always thought a 403 was a stroked 350, since it took the same intake....never cared, it's a grandpa car powerplant...

[Badbird69]

The Rocket block is a chevy block. The Nascar Olds 350 block was a real nice piece. Local Super Stock racer Randy Mans used them when he was running Oldsmobiles.

I would consider Bill Trovato a very credible source for Olds information. He is out there doin' it with considerable success.

Dave Smith is the guy who had the Olds powered pro stocker. He is also another great source for information and specialty Olds parts.

The Nascar blocks were used with Batten heads in the mid 70's. Better heads are now available, and I know of at least one local Olds racer that has a IA-II block with the Oldsmobile head bolt pattern. Interesting, hmmm?

The Pontiac 400 block can accept a stroker and make good power. You wouldn't want to put a stroker in a 403, but with the right parts it can be a wicked quick revving machine. Tough call.

[screamingchief]

Well,after more input that supported that Olds NASCAR block deal,I figured I owed it to all here to do some searching in the enemies camp,and it indeed seems that the NASCAR block stuff is legit.

Hey I said I could be wrong,wont be the first time,wont be the last time likely either.

Seems that block is their equivalent to our RAV or SD 455 block or such,extremely low production numbers,big big $$$ when one finds one,and all sorts of oddball configurations and such due to their use in professional racing pursuits.

So I guess the Olds NASCAR block is their "white whale".

One thing of note is the fact that the part no. I came across for the siamesed bore NASCAR blocks differs from that part no. mechanic17 gave,it seems the part no. for the siamesed bore NASCAR block is 22528096 and not 22527735,likely the 22527735 would be the non-siamesed bore version,and that non-siamesed bore block would likely never make it to the 4.350" 403 bore size as suggested in that post.

Reports on the "other guys" forum say the siamesed bore NASCAR blocks can easily go that bore size and still pass a sonic test.

Reports say the non-siamesed bore blocks can go to like 4.155" bore or so very safely,maybe just a little further with a sonic check.

They came with 2 bolt production caps,but apparently can easily be conveted to 4 bolt mains with new caps,and for an olds that's amazing I guess (I never claimed to be an Olds expert folks).

So I guess that could help even up the playing field somewhat,but the big $$$ buy-in and rarity would sure make that a tough hurdle for some.

And that mostly draws upon the Olds 350 cid motor for it's true heritage,which is a pretty well established one IMO.

I just found it odd that those part no.s for the Olds NASCAR block were so close to all the Rocket block & DRCE stuff I guess,as the timeline for that NASCAR block seems to be quite a bit earlier than any of that later "corporate" engine stuff was.



@ least I learned something new today,and that something indeed could be worth big $$$ if I ever came across one of those blocks at a good price.

FWIW

Bret P.

[screamingchief]

Oh yeah,BTW,pics do exist of @ least two Olds NASCAR blocks,so I guess I'm a true believer now.



LOL

Bret P.

[LUST01]

There is a 357 cid Batten/Olds drag race motor for currently for sale on e-bay. The add says it is an Oldsmobile Original Drag Race Competition Engine. The little bit I found on the internet on the Olds NASCAR engine program was that Batten did the cylinder heads and Edelbrock did a Victor Intake. Could this be a NASCAR Olds engine that someone turned into a drag motor. The 357 cubic inches fits right into the NASCAR rule book.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Olds-...Q5fAccessories

After reading some of the info screamingchief found on the net, the block in the Ebay sale is a diesel block and not a HP NASCAR Block. The NASCAR block has 2.50 mains. The diesel block as 3.00 mains. Here is a link to the info on the Olds NASCAR block:

http://www.robertpowersmotorsports.com/DieselWeb.html

[Brian Baker]

I thought the DRCE equipment was Chevy stuff? Think Warren Johnson when he was running an Olds in Pro Stock. That EBAY ad sounds like misadvertising...a diesel block with Batten heads, nothing more.

[Overkillphil]

LOL, at least there are pictures (albiet allegedly) of Bigfoot which is more than I can say for the non-windowed 403. If they existed, we would all be looking at a picture of it posted in this thread or at least on an Olds site. The Olds guys are even more skeptical than here!

Seems the 403 may be their 301.

[mechanic17]

Trovato's book is new--I just gave the one part # he listed for the siamesed bore block, but if people want all the numbers he provides, I will reproduce them here. Seems like SC might have identified an error, either mine or Bill's.

I bought the book because I have several buddies who own Oldsmobiles, and I like to have at least basic info to get the garden-variety myths out of the way. Ditto with the Buick book by Jefferson Bryant.

I will say I don't think either of these is nearly as informative as Jim Hand's companion volume. Hopefully the "rebuild"book forthcoming from Rotella will continue the trend of superior Poncho knowledge for the masses.

[Dragncar]

Well Brain, I just got off the phone with Whittmore and asked him about the solid main 403. He said he rebuilt one for a friends mom. It was in the first year they were available in GPs. He bored it .030 and said it did not have the beefy mains like the Olds diesel blocks did.
How many builders do you know who have torque plates for Pontiac, BBC,sbc, BBF,sbf, FE Ford, Olds , Buick and big and small Mopar.
If the guy says he has done one he has done one.
When you look at all the exotic engines Oldsmobile made, far more than Pontiac or maybe even chevy why would you not think they made a 403 with solid webbing.
They made a 455 with 4 valve Hemi heads that made 500HP @ 5000 RPMs, 600HP @ 6000 RPMs and 700HP @7000 RPM with a freaking Q jet.

[Overkillphil]

So let me undrstand this: he knew enough to look for the elusive Olds 403 that has never been verified, yet he didn't think to snap a picture of it? Well golly-gee he must have plum forgot!

[Wareagle]

HOT ROD Road test for the 79 T/A 400 4 spd. 14.6 @ 96 mph - 403 was not even close - maybe 16 sec's in the 1/4 .

[Dragncar]

War, nice article. But I could not read the print.
I bought one of those cars. The last real Pontiac.
79,400 Trans Am 4 speed WS6 car with 42,000 original one owner miles on it.
Just for my wife to drag race while I run my 69 GTO down the strip.
Now, phil, or whatever your name is.
That engine was done long ago by one of the best Pontiac engine builders this world has ever known. You have no idea what you are blabbing about you knuckle dragging semi retard.
Take it to the bank.
If you had any real idea you would not have let your fingers post the garbage you just clicked on.
Let me put it this way, you are a nobody.
Did Edelbrock call you when they wanted to know what Pontiac engine builders wanted in a aftermarket Pontiac head.
I did not think so.

[LUST01]

"When you look at all the exotic engines Oldsmobile made, far more than Pontiac or maybe even chevy"

Thats a bold statement. Look at the three attached Hot Rod covers or articles. You tell me who made more exotic experimental engines. Olds did play around with aluminum, turbocharged. and hemi engines as part of there Can-Am program. The 4 valve push rod motor might have made it to production if the muscle car market did change in the early 70's. Tell me how many of those Olds engine even made it to limited part form? I have never seen an Olds car with any type of prototype engine at a show or on the street or in a magazine. There are articals that talk about the program but none show the engines that exist currently. I not saying there isn't but I haven't seen any other than the one 4 valve push rod engine is on a engine stand in a musuem in Lansing. The are a few vintage McGee Can Am cars that still have there Olds engines but none have the DOHC heads. We know Pontiac made several OHC concepts that never made it to production but look at the Pontiac experimental engines that did make to production or at least in limited race versions: The 389/421 Superduty program, the OHC 6 program, the Ram Air V program including the 303 and 366 engines, The 455 Superduty program. Mac McKellar has a Grand Prix with one of his OHC V-8s. Considering Pontiac was #2 to Chevy, they had quite a few exerimental engines that made it into production. Olds made a handfull, and I mean handfull, of race engines that made it to the McGee Can Am team. A few high profile Olds drag racers (Smother Brothers) did recieve some aluminum heads and blocks. Chevy was in another league. They played around with OHC, multi plug hemi and canted valve heads, 3 and 4 valve heads etc. True very few of these Chevy engines made it out of the experimental phase but the technogly exists in the engines GM makes today. If the market didn't change in the early 70's, I'm sure a few of those Chevy experimental engines would have made production. I have seen a 69 Z28 with prototype canted valve cylinder heads that survived from being crushed. Another reason was Chevy was already making horsepower out of the designs that had. A ZL1 in injected Can Am tune was making 800 horsepower in the early 70's.

[goatwgn]

Originally Posted by mechanic17

Trovato's book is new--I just gave the one part # he listed for the siamesed bore block, but if people want all the numbers he provides, I will reproduce them here. Seems like SC might have identified an error, either mine or Bill's.

I bought the book because I have several buddies who own Oldsmobiles, and I like to have at least basic info to get the garden-variety myths out of the way. Ditto with the Buick book by Jefferson Bryant.

I will say I don't think either of these is nearly as informative as Jim Hand's companion volume. Hopefully the "rebuild"book forthcoming from Rotella will continue the trend of superior Poncho knowledge for the masses.

X2. I have a Pontiac and an Olds so I got both books. The Olds book is informative, but not nearly as well as the Jim Hand Pontiac book or the old HO Racing manuals. As far as the solid web 403 debate is concerned, I have never seen one either as I had stated before, but I believe if there ever were any, they would have installed them in the 77' and 78' GMC motorhomes, when the 455 Olds was no longer available. The windowed mains only present a problem IMO when hopping up those engines, in which case you would do better with a 68-76 Olds 350 (even with the less displacement). The 557 casting 400 blocks were out at the same time, but they are like Charles Atlas in comparison to the 77-90 Olds gas blocks.That being said, the Olds and Pontiac V8s from that era will give years,and hundreds of thousands of miles of use if properly cared for at stock or even mildly hopped up levels, but I wouldnt use any block (from any manufacturer) cast from the late 70's through the early 90's as a basis for an all out performance engine if I had an older casting available.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Well Brain, I just got off the phone with Whittmore and asked him about the solid main 403. He said he rebuilt one for a friends mom. It was in the first year they were available in GPs. He bored it .030 and said it did not have the beefy mains like the Olds diesel blocks did.
How many builders do you know who have torque plates for Pontiac, BBC,sbc, BBF,sbf, FE Ford, Olds , Buick and big and small Mopar.
If the guy says he has done one he has done one.
When you look at all the exotic engines Oldsmobile made, far more than Pontiac or maybe even chevy why would you not think they made a 403 with solid webbing.
They made a 455 with 4 valve Hemi heads that made 500HP @ 5000 RPMs, 600HP @ 6000 RPMs and 700HP @7000 RPM with a freaking Q jet.

Whittmore is full of s**t and you can tell him I said so.

Pontiac never offered the 403 in the Grand Prix. California GP's got the Chevy 305 engine. Furthermore, if there were any non-windowed main 403's out there, some fanatical Olds collector would have one and we would have seen pics of it on the internet or in some magazine by now.

You know, with as many engines that have come through his shop, memories can get fuzzy with age.

[Overkillphil]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

...Now, phil, or whatever your name is.
That engine was done long ago by one of the best Pontiac engine builders this world has ever known. You have no idea what you are blabbing about you knuckle dragging semi retard.
Take it to the bank.
If you had any real idea you would not have let your fingers post the garbage you just clicked on.
Let me put it this way, you are a nobody.
Did Edelbrock call you when they wanted to know what Pontiac engine builders wanted in a aftermarket Pontiac head.
I did not think so.

My my, you certainly "put me in my place". Oh look, still no proof.

I rest my case.

[Dragncar]

Hey War, thanks for the tip. But that looks like the last page from a longer article. Do you have the rest of it. I took mine down the strip twice right after I got it. The best pass was a 15. 30 something if a remember right. Belts squealing, hard tires, carb need rebuilt and the fuel pump did not seem to keep up or there was some other thing going on like that brass filter was plugged or something like that. The guy put a 11" Borg and Beck long pressure plate on it and it had this clutch that 10 pads on one side and a standard looking surface on the other side. It did grab hard but its too stiff for the 95 pound wife so its got a Turbo 350 in it right now.
Lusto, I know it was a bold statement. But I bet Oldsmobile got screwed by Chevrolet just like Pontiac got screwed by Chevrolet. They tried to play around with some wicked looking twin turbo stuff way back then. You know chevy was threatened by them. The Vette had to be the fastest you know.
Brian,with all due respect, and I do have some for you. Why would I tell him that.
What you said, he has no idea who you are and I can guarantee he could not care less. In other words you are a nobody to him.
You have no idea what kind of man he is. There was a time when it was Nunzi, HO, Fulper, Butler and Whittmore Engine Service. Butler and Dan used to have adds together. They were old pals. Dan could have went Pontiac big time if thats what he wanted. But he can not farm out his work. He has to do it himself. One of the reasons it takes so long for his work. He is a machinists machinist.
Why would a person who took the time to write down Pontiac head ccs of all the heads ho took off and got the correct ccs before they had a chance to get milled. Wrote down the Pontiac deck heights of all the blocks he took apart just get fuzzy minded or just lie about a block he did.
The man is anal about taking notes. He is only 61 and sharp as they get.
He owns a 62 4 speed 389 SD Swiss Cheese Cat. Was friends with some of the top people at Pontiac, knew Smokey U and is not they type of person to tell tales.
Because you say something did not exist does not mean it did not exist. Pontiac never built a 90cc SD 455 head in 1970. But he held a set in his hands.
If you knew him you would know he is not the kind of guy to "take a pic" of something like this. He just got a computer a few years ago just to check out things like a 401K. He would never think in a million years to waste his time on a Pontiac message board.
Ask Jim Butler what he thinks of Dan and you will get nothing but praise.
He taught me 80% of what I know about Pontiacs over the phone. He is the reason my car has always been fast for what it was. The reason I have never even spun a rod bearing in my life.
He thought someone at Olds could have doing something a little different at the time with the molds. Mentioned they were playing around with the Olds diesel block at the around then too but this block did not have the very beefy mains. Had the real big bore and real long rods too.
But maybe he is a little "fuzzy".

[Wareagle]

Dragncar - just have that page but we had a local guy here running 14.7's in a 78 T/A 400 4spd - stock - back in the day .
There is a article in CARS Magazine 1978 issue were NUNZI took a Stock 78 T/A 400 4spd
ran open headers on it and got 13.8's out of it .

[Badbird69]

Well.......facts are stubborn things.

The 403 was a short deck small block. It shared the same 6" rod length as the 350, 331, 307 and 260.

The only long rod motors Olds made were the 425 and the early 400 which had 7" rods. The later 400 and 455 had 6.735" rods.

Hey, at least the Olds rods were forged.....

[Badbird69]

oops, typo..... 330, not 331