[geekwagon]

Hi

Wondering if anyone could give a number on how many 65 convert GTO with 421 hurst shifters were made? I got a number of 11,000 converts made that year but how about with a 421 motor which I understand was a special order? What about with hurst setup?

Thanks Kevin

[bdk1976]

All 1965 GTOs with a manual transmission would have come with a Hurst shifter.

None of them had a 421 from the factory.

You hear stories of GTOs with three on the tree, but I have yet to see evidence of one. Not to say they don't exist, since at least 1-2 bench seat '65 GTOs seem to have been produced per special order.

There could also be an argument about a factory installed 421 and the Car and Driver 'ringer'.

Either way a hurst shifter would have been stock and the 421 in your car was almost certainly swapped in at some point.

[geekwagon]

hmm well then are you saying that if someone back in 65 ordered a new GTO they could not order with a 421 in a convert? Someone I know spoke to his brother who is original owner of a 65 and he tells me he ordered it with buckets and a 421..had to wait 6 months for it. 4 speed, hurst shifter, etc. Is this mullarkey or could it be true..and how rare would this be if true?

These are the specs he mentions:

376HP 421HO Tri
Saf-T-Track Diff
Power Steering
Power Brakes
Buckets
HURST
Convertible
Gauge Package


Kevin

[65WJ]

All 65 GTO's were delivered from Pontiac with a 389. You could Go to dealers parts counter and order a 421 and have the dealer installe.
Bottom line all 65 GTO's came from the factory with 389.
Patrick

[65WJ]

Remember that GM only allowed and engine no bigger than 330 ci in the A bodies. Pontiac got around the rule by having the 389 as an option.
There was no way they could put a 421 from the factory. GM would not allow it.

If you would like a nice book to read. Check out "Glory Days" by Jim Wangers.
He tells the GTO story very nicely.

Patrick

[geekwagon]

ok i will ask him the full story.. maybe he had dealer install it. Does this make it rarer or any of the options he has?

Hes looking to sell so trying to get a ballpark what its worth. Car has 9800 miles he is original owner. Everything original. i mean ORIGINAL almost too original for me.

Kevin

[bdk1976]

Just curious why you are so focused on rarity? That car would be very desirable, regardless of whether it is considered 'rare' or not.

Bucket seats - like the hurst shifter - were standard. The other options you list are very desirable. If it does check out to be a 421HO, I don't think that would detract at all from the non-#'s aspect of the car, at least for me.

Post the codes/#'s from the engine - I am always suspicious of claims of 421/428/455 when half the time they turn out to be 389/400s.

[geekwagon]

owner still claims from factory and not from dealer swap...that dealer did nothing to the car. Not sure how this is possible.

WHats a car like this worth? Just looking for a range or idea.

What numbers specifically am I looking at and where. If it did somehow come from factory shouldnt numbers match.

Kevin

[65WJ]

Look under the passenger side head. On the block will be the production number of the block and below that will be 2 letters. WT is a 389, WJ is the 421 HO
Pontiac did not start stamping the vin on the block until 1967
Patrick

[bdk1976]

Ask him if he has the protecto-plate.

[Dick Boneske]

Kevin, I love GTO's. I have owned eight of them from four 1964's to a 2004. All '64/'65 GTO's had bucket seats and all stick shift ones had Hurst shifters. Most GTO's came out of the factory with 4 speed, power steering, & power brakes. Many had Safe-T-Track, gauges, and Tripower. NONE of them had 421's off the assembly line. As has been discussed at length, the '64's tested by Car & Driver, Hot Rod, and other magazines had 421's installed after production.

Cars like your friend's brother's '65 are not rare. Rare is a Super Duty 421 Aluminum-Front-end Catalina or Grand Prix. Or a '63 Tempest with the 421 and automatic trans. Or a '69 Judge with Ram Air IV engine. The Super Duty 421 cars could not be purchased by just anyone who went to a dealer to order one. Any dealer would laugh at you if you tried ordering a 421 GTO. I had a tough time getting the dealer to order one with a 3.90 axle and associated mandatory options. I ordered a '67 Firebird with Ram Air and a 3.90 axle and waited more than two months before Pontiac told me they were not going to build the car. It came to the dealer with a 3.23 axle and standard 400.

Since I bought my '64 GTO as my first new car, I've had people tell me of a "friend" who had a factory 421 GTO. These stories never checked out to be true.

As someone pointed out above, why not focus on your friend's brother's car being a nice GTO instead of trying to prove it was a "factory 421"? As another poster pointed out, a 421 installed after delivery may not detract much from the value of the car, but certainly wouldn't be worth more than a numbers-matching 389 Tripower.

If he really wants to find out what the car was built with, spend the $45 and get PHS documentation. You may be surprised at how original his car is.

[Jerry H.]

Dick put it very well. PHS documentation and the original Protect o Plate will tell EXACTLY how the car came from the factory AND IF it still has the engine that came in it from the factory. Those two documents are the only way to be 100% sure.

[70ra455]

The car did not have a 421 from the factory. Absolutely. If the car only has 9800 miles and this is the original owner and no engine swap has occured then it has a 389 in it right now ... period ... end of story.

$50.00 to PHS and a couple of hours later you'll have the whole story.

If it's an original 389 tripower 4spd convertible with 9800 miles it's worth a good amount of money (although less than last year and much less than two years ago) and it doesn't need the aid of a story about 421's.

Let's get the engine codes and the mystery will be solved. It takes about 30 seconds to do this.

[Jerry H.]

I bet we never find out the REAL truth on this one.

[geekwagon]

sheesh give me a chance to make time to see the car. I could care less which way it turns out. Im just looking for info & help. Last I heard is he went into dealer in 65 looking for the biggest motor he could get..dealer offered a package with 421. He does not know if factory or dealer did it... he knows he waited 6 months and got a car with 421 in it which it has now when he picked it up from dealer.

So i assume this could not possibly be a numbers matching car....

[70ra455]

Let's take a logical look at this thing for a second. A man goes to his local Pontiac dealer in 1965. He asks for the biggest motor that he can get? It doesn't make sense. The brochures would have told him that the "biggest" motor he could get would be a tripower 389. I would think that 99.99% of GTO buying customers would have known that! And IF the dealer offered to install a 421 he would have been charged a large amount of money and would remember that particular detail.

I think what I am saying makes sense, is plausible, and would be believed by the general buying public. At this point we would need to see the following:

1- all documentation (get PHS for $50.00 all it takes is a fax and wait a couple of hours)
2- get the engine code off the block (30 seconds) and the date code off the block (2-3 minutes)

With those two things all this can come more clearly into focus. However, even if the engine IS a 421 and IS dated correctly it would be impossible to prove that this was done by the factory OR the dealer without documentation. Anyone can add an engine at any time. But if the dealer did it, any owner with a 9800 mile original car 42 years later would remember those circumstances. To purport otherwise is just not a believable or plausible story (unless the original owner suffers from a mental disorder and cannot remember - but this does not seem to be the case here.)

We'll wait for more.

Oh yeah ... how's about some pics of the car including the engine compartment?

[67GTONUT]

If it does have a 421 in it... then no way can it be considered a #'s matching car.....

..... now if he has documentation , such as the original Retail Order , which shows what the dealer charged for the pre-delivery "421" swap, and better yet the service dept work order for the swap showing date and vehicle miles.... He would have a definite topic of conversation among us Pontiac Folk.......

But without any of that...... its just another great GTO with a non numbers matching drivetrain,......... that does NOT make it any less of a great car owned by the original owner...

[Tenney]

Sounds like a cool car. Could be the 421 was an engineering install? If so, it may've come off the line with a 389, dropped by engineering for the swap, and then onto the dealership. That being the case, build sheet (PHS should have a copy) will likely indicate an engineering detour.

I'm with those who say great car, either way. Price wise, the 9800 mi./original owner factor kinda moves it from a "price guide" category and into the "find another" category - worth tbd by yourself and original owner.

[Mikes65]

You must not want an answer. Several people have simply stated, check the engine code on the block and the date code. That would settle most of your questions.
Do you actually have access to this GTO 421 ?
Dont mean to be a #.%, but check the numbers are just drop it.