| FAQ |
| Members List |
| Social Groups |
| Calendar |
| Search |
| Today's Posts |
|
#661
11-26-2023, 02:53 PM
|
||||
|
||||
Kenth showed in post 658 what others have been talking about.
Yes that rod is in backwards in that picture. There may be others, I haven't bothered to look at other pictures to verify. Just seeing that one rod, plus the fact that 7 other pistons are backwards is all I need to know, that short block needs torn down and done the right way. Most likely just bite the bullet, hit the machine shop and do the whole short block properly. Then hope your knurled valve guides last you for at least a few thousand miles before that has to be revisited. Or better yet, do it right while the short block is down. You say you're making progress Mike, but most of us are looking at this as a train wreck that has issues that just haven't been addressed yet. We are all trying to help you but I believe what ever your current situation is, it's not allowing you to deal with this thing properly. Whether it's money, work space, or time, it's understandable. Hope it turns out for the best. |
|
#662
11-26-2023, 03:24 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
But the link doesn't work for me....cannot access the original presentation. The explanations and diagrams in the thread, however, make it clear. |
|
#663
11-26-2023, 03:36 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
#664
11-26-2023, 03:50 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
This would be the components I was speaking about the other day that's heating up your oil at idle speed. Too much friction and lack of oil flow. Clay |
|
#665
11-27-2023, 02:01 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
OK, that was a good explanation about the topic at hand, thank you for that valuable info. This is why this Thread is so long and all info. is in one place. Perfect for me anyway, "any other people like this about this Thread or am I alone in thinking that the more info. in one place, is to one's benefit?" |
|
#666
11-27-2023, 03:01 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
After reading the Thread that I was recently sent to, I elected to write down a few passages, that I would like to share from it to this Threads post. (1) The chamfer on the big Rod end matches the Radius on the Crank Journal or they are adjacent to one another. From: # 4, "ROD/PISTON ORIENTATION DIAGRAM, THREAD. (2) Pontiac: hold the Piston/Rod ASSEMBLY IN YOUR HAND WITH THE valve RELIEFS AT THE TOP, THE chamfer SHOULD BE TO THE RIGHT, ON EACH bank. (3) Pontiac: The Piston notch is orientated forward. (4) Pontiac, older like 1967, 428 ci motor: Seeing a squirt hole on the side of the Rods Cap, viewing from the bottom means that the Piston is installed backwards, the squirt hole should be on the top facing the cam. (5) With the Chamfer against the Crank Radius, the Bearing tangs will be facing in toward the Cam. On older Rods the oil hole will be on the Tang side. Also, Rods are offset some, so it matters how they go in. Installing them wrong will cause them to bind. With the Piston notch installed facing forward the Piston offset will be correct. (6) By facing the Bearing Tangs in towards the Cam the Chamfers on the Rods will fall into place. (7) The old factory Pontiac Rods had oil squirters on the Tang side of the Rods to cool the Pistons bottoms and to lubricate the Camshaft and Cylinder walls. (8) Pontiac literature describes the early Rod Spurt holes as providing oil to the opposite Banks Cylinder walls, Piston Rings and wrist pins, "not" the Cam. (9) Please edit to suit, if any of this is wrong, that I just copied and posted here. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-27-2023 at 03:20 AM. |
|
#667
11-27-2023, 03:40 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Yes, when I look at # 32 and # 33 of that Thread, I agree that is how this could have happened to this motor, in a way... How do we account for: "all the Rods would be in backwards" VS "not, just the one we see in my photo". Then there is "one Piston is installed correctly"(# 2) and the rest are in backwards? Since we have closed the bottom oil pan, it is too late to see: "how many other Rods are reversed". All that I can say is, "how this motor ever ran so hard for me", could be that Pontiac made one strong forgiving Engine here, especially when running with the used worn-out # 886 cam and lifters were in it. What a Beast this is, if I can only get it running again, without the current noises. It is going back together as we speak and time will tell us soon. If the inside noise persists, I will concede to begin saving the money to purchase the parts, over the next year and study during that time, for the rebuild, what else can I do? As I said before, I would place this motor for sale and buy an 800 - 1000 hp Engine for this Vehicle, I don't want to ruin this motor by building it above its stock bore only to lose its originality. There are too many motors out there that are already built, that I need to research and maybe, if funds prevail, I can just show this motor, when I show this car, I will see... Direction fixed; you can come back now, Cliff. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-27-2023 at 04:00 AM. |
|
#668
11-27-2023, 05:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
OK, looking at the same photo that you reposted of my Crank, the Rod on the right needs to be swapped over and turned to the left side in that view and the one on the left needs to be on the right, this way that obvious chamfer will be toward the outside, adjacent to the crank Journal rounds. That Chamfer is to clear the weights of the Crank too. We took the measurements in the past and posted them to this Thread. Could you look at those numbers of the side clearances that we provided to see if they are within spec and whether there is a good reason that this Engine runs the way it was built. Rite, wrong or indifferent, it has enough clearance to function in this real-world example, without overheating, frying or blowing up either. I can attest to the fact, that the Heats we experienced in the Engine compartment, in this Vehicle, over the last ten years, were unbearable. However, over the years, we band-aided or masked these under hood symptoms that raised heat issues/problems and continued to evolve toward the factory professional way of reducing heat, in an Engine compartment. One, we added a reverse Trans-am scoop to give us cool air to the Carbs. Plus, we use rec-89-90 unleaded fuel less Alcohol that boils or percolates at 186 degrees F. approx., Later than 176 degrees F. approx. then fuel with Alcohol in it. We added a HD Truck type Clutch fan, factory shroud, 180-degree Thermostat with 3 drilled by-pass holes. We modified the water pump, drilled the block and Heads and blocked off holes in order to perform the 421and Pontiac cooling mods. We have an additional Side-kick and condenser elec. fans to back us up when running the AC. We have the Trans. and motor oil coolers with remote oil filters on both, to cool their fluids better. I blocked off the Exhaust crossovers and installed a heat block off phenolic under the Intake Manifolds and above the Vally pan. I wrapped the Headers. I return the fuel back to the Gas tank and then there are the band-aids like wrapping fuel lines, Phenolics covering the fuel bowls and lines etc... lastly but not leastly, so we just added a new radiator Cap, that went bad from the Vehicle sitting for too long. There is no excessive heat at this time and the only thing to complain about is this newest ghost noise. So, if this ghost noise disappears after replacing the Flexplate, Could I drive safely as long as all the tolerances, clearances and specs within range? Look back in the attachment area for the posted clearances between the Rods and the Crank and piston to Cylinder walls. |
|
#669
11-27-2023, 08:08 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Well the idea that you have a special 1967 "hipo" 428 with a factory tri- power has been disproven. All you have is a cobbled 428 that needs most of the messy work done to it undone to be made right. And now you are asking if half assing would be okay?
Reality check time Mike, seriously. P@blo is now out too and I am suprised Kenth is still trying to help. |
|
#670
11-27-2023, 09:12 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Mikes reply: It's like being held up by a life preserver, from my point of view, this sucks... This latest assembly will tell me if the noise goes away, but it physically won't fix the irreputable faulty build. The wrong information in the Piston photo, viewed from front or back of the motor, would have "not" duped a real mechanic, either. There is no excuse for this, anymore. It was bad enough that I had to undo most of the mechanical work that was performed by my predecessor, now this. The Trans. breaking, that came out of left-field, as well. I can see now, "why these aftermarket builders of Auto- cross race cars are raising the drive train up into the cab". In order to spare people with lowered Vehicles from damage like I sustained, when going over a root, hidden under an Asphalt driveway. For what it's worth, I won't go back to that guy's house until this vehicle works again, the place is jinxed. How this Engine worked (from 1968 build) prior to my ownership and my predecessor's ownership and all the way back to the moon shiners and back to when it was actually raced, is the question? It worked for me for 7,000 miles, until I damaged the Trans. with one (# 866) worn out Cam and Lifters, no less. Then it continued to run with the "041" Cam. HOW? This must mean that this used Engine can run in the out of normal condition, as some have said; notwithstanding, the possible damage that can happen over time, noted by some others. Am I seeing the end of the line? The answer to that question will come next weekend, according to my plan of attack. Taking bets, send Mike a Doller each VS an attaboy, if I lose. P.S. The saga continues...Mike out. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-27-2023 at 09:26 AM. |
|
#671
11-27-2023, 11:48 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
"Direction fixed; you can come back now, Cliff."
I am no longer able to help because this is twice now your've had the engine apart, found serious fundamental issues with the shortblock and failed to correct them either time. I provided deadly accurate information as to why you CAN'T get away with running factory type offset pin type pistons BACKWARDS (connecting rods in backwards ain't much better), but you chose to leave it that way. Not a big deal, but then we continue to have issues DIRECTLY related to your pistons flopping all over in the bores and even worse a handful of connecting rods are also running backwards with the "flat" side out against the radius in the crank throws.....YIKES!......So basically NOTHING gets better with these things until you do things the right way. Most likely what's happened here is that WAY back in the day those "moonshiners" did a quick engine "build" on the picnic table in their back yard, on a shoestring budget, and sadly were drinking too much of their own product during the job. You've certainly inherited a mess, which isn't good, but even worse you aren't taking steps to correct it, which makes it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to help out here......FWIW. For that reason I need to exit once again and go back to doing more productive things with my time, like throwing sticks for my dogs........
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
|
#672
11-27-2023, 03:19 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Visit "Rons Pontiac page", this is where you can view the "1968 service manual" online or download it to disc. as I did, a long time ago.
http://ronspontiacpage.com/indexes/index.html The "1968 Fisher Body manual" is there also. There is much more info. here and it is free to the public. I just started reading about rebuilding the 428 ci Engine and the "Piston and Crank Factory material", I have to start somewhere, let it be here, Mike out. I just got the email saying that the ARP hardware for the Torque Converter to Flexplate is in the mail box. That means we can spend a few hours at night putting everything back together, moving inches not feet, so no one gets hurt under the Car, shoving around the heavy Transmission and lifting this Cast Iron Block, by himself. We should be up and running by this coming weekend, if we don't run into any snags... If it weren't for all the extra jacks, that I collected over the last ten years, plus wood and cinder Blocks, as well as a surplus of tools, that I became a collector of, some were along the line, some people collect stamps or coins. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-27-2023 at 04:05 PM. |
|
#673
11-28-2023, 03:17 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
mikes reply:
I am re-posting this because of its importance in this current discussion! Copied from an older thread and contributed by GTO Freek, may be of interest to those that promote running stock type pistons with offset pins backwards: "Here's another often misunderstood bit of tech. trivia, " "What is piston pin offset for?" That is, what purpose does it serve? Let's examine that one. Modern powersports engine pistons are not mounted on their connecting rods exactly on center. They are offset radially, that is, perpendicular to their rotational axis. In other words, in a vertical, single-cylinder engine, the piston is offset toward the exhaust side of the cylinder. That is, the piston pin hole is bored off center toward the intake side, usually less than 1 millimeter. It is frequently stated with a sort of bored complacency that the purpose of this offset is to reduce piston slap. The truth is, while piston slap is reduced through piston pin offset, but that is not the purpose of the technology. The piston engine has three major parts: crankshaft, connecting rod, and piston. Each has a different job to do. The reciprocating part -- the piston -- makes the crankshaft -- the rotating part, uhh, rotate. The connecting rod is simply the part in the middle. It translates the piston's reciprocating motion into the crankshaft rotary motion. The neat thing is that in the process, it shares in the motion of both. That is, the connecting rod is both a reciprocating part and a rotational part, at the same time. In fact, when balancing an engine, it is common to divide the connecting rod's weight in two, thus permitting half its weight to be calculated as reciprocating and half as rotation. The point is, the upper half of the connecting rod reciprocates with the piston, the lower half rotates with the crankshaft, and this is important to understanding the stresses on all three parts, but especially those on the connecting rod. The piston and its half of the connecting rod stops twice per crankshaft revolution, even though the crankshaft continues to turn. This means the piston and top of the rod also start back up twice. This stopping and starting imposes stresses on all three of the parts, stresses that increase with crankshaft rpm. To reduce these loads, the piston is mounted to the connecting rod slightly offset. This causes the piston to reach top dead center at a different time than the connecting rod, effectively spreading the shock loading over a greater number of crankshaft degrees. In short, the real reason for piston pin offset is that it softens reciprocal loading, permitting lighter more power-efficient parts to be used, and the engines to be capable of higher rpm. However, there is another phenomenon at work also, a kind of side benefit. Because the connecting rod spends most of its time in the engine at an angle, the piston engine has what is called minor and major thrust. Major thrust refers to the downward-stroking piston's force against the cylinder wall during combustion, due to the rod being angled in that direction. Minor thrust is the piston's thrust against the opposite cylinder wall during compression, because the rod's angle is opposite also. These thrust forces push the piston firmly against the cylinder wall. The important thing is that at TDC, they flip-flop. Major thrust turns into minor thrust, and visa-versa. In older engines, this flip-flop caused the piston smack the cylinder, resulting in a noise. Fortunately, the piston pin offset in today's engines, besides reducing inertia stresses, does two things that reduce this noise. First, because the piston is mounted off center, the transition from major to minor thrust is less sudden. There is less impact. Second, instead of a sudden lateral shift, the piston actually rolls from major to minor thrust. That is, the piston shifts first at the skirt, then gradually the rest of the piston makes contact, instead of all of the piston at once. To summarize, piston pin offset is the manufacturer's way of reducing stress on reciprocating parts. It permits these parts to be lighter, which results in more efficient manufacture and less power loss in the engine, as well as higher rpm. A complementary result of piston pin offset is reduced piston slap due to the more gradual shift from major to minor thrust. CLIFF Mikes reply: I am not an Engineer, but a mear Draftsmen, with common sense, born from the loins of an Engineer, though the one I call dad with the help of mom... I don't know what the stresses are called, in my motor, but I will provide an intelligent Theory of what is going on in my Motor. Since the latest and most current noise occurred after the Heads were sent out to be Remanufactured, Mike deduces that the Heads are Tight, solid, strong, hard as (yin and yang). Meets soft Block, 50 years old, "not" as strong for its age and weak, buckled at the knees, for lack of Engineers words. When (yin vs yang) just as Hard is opposite to soft, cold /hot, up/down, Women/Man, love/hate, i.e. a man throws a hard punch at you, so you softly step aside and let him go by you and meet him with a shunt powerful punch...Keeping the circle of life rotating around itself moving CCW TO CW, BUT FLOWING ALL THE TIME. I liken this theory to my Engine, in that the Heads being newish on top of the older Block causes new parts to form new Harmonics from pressures and temperature changes, metallurgy inside and outside, expansion contraction with the existing parts, what noises that were not there before simply manifested into the current vibrations going through the Engine. Where I don't exactly know, could all of a sudden, the reversed Pistons or Rods be the problem for sure, I can't be sure, "how anybody can?" You take a tuning fork and strike it against something and you get vibration that continues for a while and eventually stops, So I am taking all and any such variables out of the equation, before I perform a major operation like rebuilding the Engine first, because it could be from two parts rubbing to just a simple expansion and contraction of parts? JMO. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-28-2023 at 04:04 AM. |
|
#674
11-28-2023, 11:08 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
[B]I don't know what the stresses are called, in my motor, but I will provide an intelligent Theory of what is going on in my Motor.
Since the latest and most current noise occurred after the Heads were sent out to be Remanufactured, Mike deduces that the Heads are Tight, solid, strong, hard as (yin and yang). Meets soft Block, 50 years old, "not" as strong for its age and weak, buckled at the knees, for lack of Engineers words. When (yin vs yang) just as Hard is opposite to soft, cold /hot, up/down, Women/Man, love/hate, i.e. a man throws a hard punch at you, so you softly step aside and let him go by you and meet him with a shunt powerful punch...Keeping the circle of life rotating around itself moving CCW TO CW, BUT FLOWING ALL THE TIME. I liken this theory to my Engine, in that the Heads being newish on top of the older Block causes new parts to form new Harmonics from pressures and temperature changes, metallurgy inside and outside, expansion contraction with the existing parts, what noises that were not there before simply manifested into the current vibrations going through the Engine. Where I don't exactly know, could all of a sudden, the reversed Pistons or Rods be the problem for sure, I can't be sure, "how anybody can?" This is one of the more "interesting theories" I have ever had the opportunity to read..... Fix the rod and piston orientation as mentioned by countless other members as a first step to solving your issues. The above makes absolutely no sense and this whole thread is going to serve no real benefit to anyone searching for info in the future, we are at 670+ posts time to stick a fork in it as its done.
__________________
65 LeMANS , SD performance 462ci Engine, Tremec TKX 5 speed with a 3.73 geared 8.5" 10 bolt |
|
#677
11-28-2023, 12:25 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Bruce Lee can't fix this. Chuck Norris maybe, just not Bruce Lee.
Clay |
|
#679
11-28-2023, 04:50 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Like I said earlier:
Quote:
|
|
#680
11-28-2023, 05:32 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
I saw cinder blocks being mentioned a few posts back…
I sure hope you’re not using those to support the vehicle in any way, or more to the point, supporting anything you may be sticking your melon under.
__________________
costs too much |
| The Following User Says Thank You to rolling money pits For This Useful Post: | ||
| Closed Thread |
|
|
The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.
Linear Mode
