[78w72]

Instead of doing excessive speeds at 130mph on public highways where there could be other people at risk or chance of being busted by the police & losing your license ... why not just go to a local dragstrip to test & tune the car?

At least that will be safer for you & others but more important it will give you actual times to set a baseline and compare the times/speed of different runs or after different repairs or mods to actually know the performance of the car. Much better than trying to judge performance by how much a 90-130mph run throws you back in the seat... as mentioned, one persons definition of power/speed is totally different than anothers and doesnt really prove anything related to the condition or power of the engine.

[MatthewKlein]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

The whole point that I was trying to make is, at that time, in those years, this engine had no noise and ran like a raped- ape.

I truly think that each and every issue that I am experiencing today is because of all the different changes that I have made over the years .

Take a moment to read what you wrote.

YOU are the author of your own destruction. YOU are making random changes that don't make sense. People have pointed it out. YOU have ignored the criticism.

Everyone here wants your car to run strong!

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Unless I caused it, with the Transmission build, causing Thrust toward the Crank, by not having the exact tolerances at the front of the TH 400 that I should have, yet to see that answer, Cliff where are you? Mike out.

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Transmission endplay will have nothing to do with applying thrust to crankshaft as the torque converter is in between. You just need some on both ends of the TH400. The range they will run in is really wide and not a problem area. Even so I shim mine down on the lower end of the range and have never had an issue either way.

This assumes that you correctly shimmed the new converter (if it needed it). Basically as that needed to happen was that you correctly engaged the converter in the stator, input shaft and oil pump inner gear and shoved it all the way back during installation. At that point a quick gap check between the converter and flex plate, then decide if it needed any shims or not. You don't need much clearance in that area as the converter isn't going to "grow" much in use. Too much is not a good thing as you are pulling the notched portion of the converter out of the oil pump inner gear. It still has a LOT of wiggle-room there and you've got to pull one forward quite a ways before it comes too far out of the gear and shears something off.

Your strange noises are no doubt piston "slap" from having most of them installed in the wrong direction. Had the EXACT SAME ISSUE with my fresh SBC 400 build when I pulled that dumb move. I had other issues which included more oil consumption than I was happy with for a fresh build with less than .002" piston to wall clearance and hand fitted Speed Pro oversize rings. As I told you several times on your long running thread that engine just never ran right and after 10,000 miles I couldn't deal with it anymore and pulled it out for inspection. Found the issue, put it back together the right way, noises gone, power restored and on to bigger and better things.

I tend to learn some pretty valuable lessons when I made blunders like that, so do my very best NEVER repeat them, plus pass on the info to others. Sadly in this case all the advice and DIRECT experience I provided to you went on deaf ears. You'd rather buy into some BS regurgitated theory (wives tale IMHO) that "racers" WAY back in the day reversed all their pistons so they could pull bigger wheelies and end up with the trophy at a bit event they were racing in. That moves makes no sense whatsoever then or now. You need to get back into this build and get ALL the pistons and rods in correct orientation. Only then can you move forward and accurately troubleshoot engine "noise" and other issues it's throwing at you.........IMHO.......

Question was answered...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"CLIFF: I am reposting this post, on top, just in case you did not see it, down below. A question about my recent Transmission build, an important review of the Tolerances at the "FRONT" of the Trans. that could be affecting the "THRUST" on the Crankshaft, causing the issues that I am experiencing today, like the crack in the Harmonic Balancer and now this second ghost noise thought to be the Flexplate."

Transmission endplay will have nothing to do with applying thrust to crankshaft as the torque converter is in between. You just need some on both ends of the TH400. The range Transmission run in is really wide and "not" a problem area". Even so, I shim mine down to the lower end of the range and I have never had an issue either way.

This assumes that you correctly shimmed the new converter (if it needed it). Basically, what needed to happen was that you correctly engaged the converter into the stator, input shaft and oil pump inner gear and shoved it all the way back during installation. At that point a quick gap check between the converter and flex plate, then decide if it needed any shims or not. You don't need much clearance in that area as the converter isn't going to "grow" much in use. Too much clearance is not a good thing, as you are pulling the notched portion of the converter out of the oil pump inner gear. It still has a LOT of wiggle-room there and you've got to pull one forward quite a way before it comes too far out of the gear and shears something off.

Your strange noises are no doubt piston "slap" from having most of them installed in the wrong direction. I had the EXACT SAME ISSUE with my fresh SBC 400 build, when I pulled that dumb move. I had other issues which included more oil consumption than I was happy with for a fresh build, with less than .002" piston to wall clearance using hand fitted Speed Pro oversize rings. As I told you several times, on your long running thread, that engine just never ran right even after 10,000 miles. I couldn't deal with it anymore, so I pulled it out for inspection. I found the issue, put it back together the right way, noises gone, power restored and on to bigger and better things.

I tend to learn some pretty valuable lessons when I make blunders like that, so I do my very best to NEVER repeat them, plus pass on the info. to others. Good thing, in this case all the advice and DIRECT experience that I provided to you, fell on listening ears. However, you'd rather buy into some BS regurgitated theory (wives tale IMHO) that "racers" WAY back in the day, reversed all their pistons, so they could pull bigger wheelies and end up with the trophy at a bit event that they were racing in. That choice makes no sense, whatsoever, then or now. You need to get back into this build and get ALL the pistons and rods into the correct orientation. Only then can you move forward and accurately troubleshoot an engine "noise" or other issues your motor is throwing at you.........IMHO.......

Mikes reply:

In this reply, I opted to edit your reply for future readers on this site.

It is good to know that I have working Tolerances and I won't have to go back into the Trans.

As far as the latest "noise", the saga continues, I have elected to replace the Flexplate, because I believe in repairing everything in the area while I am there. We had a leak at the rear of the oil pan and we think the rear main seal is "ok" for now. OfCourse, that will be the first part to be changed when we get into the lower end of this Motor. Since we are in the Oil pan area, I think we should at least inspect the Windage Tray while we wait for the new parts to come. This is the time, while the Oil pan is off to check the lower end for the Rod alignment orientation to the Crank. Flats of the Rods toward the inside, adjacent to one another and rounds of the Crank, towards the outside, adjacent to round fillets on the Crank Journal. I will take photos and post them to the forum this time.

P.S. We kept the proper tolerance between the Torque Converter and the Flexplate, 3/16" I believe.

With the new Flexplate and all the new ARP hardware, I will be able to sleep at night, knowing that we used the best hardware and a Factory-type Flexplate. Even if this is not the current noise.

I can't discount that "Piston slaps", by your description of what they sound like, could have shown its ugly face, given the mileage on this 1967 428 ci HO Pontiac Motor.

Why now is my only question and not 10 years ago when I began this project?

Why is it that the problem did not manifest itself, prior to the pulling of the Heads recently, it was only after that, that we noticed the Pistons were installed backwards, did it become an ongoing concern?

I still am additament about there being an issue with the lower end of this Block, because it ran to good before the accident to the Trans., that required it to be rebuilt "not" the Engine.

According to Cliff, I did "not" cause the Trans. to push extra Thrust toward the Crank, in order to break the Harmonic Balancer, which means it could have happened during the accident with the Trans. going over the root.

The Harmonic Balancer was "not" broken prior to the accident, as far as I know, at least there was "no" vibration or sound, that I picked up on.

So, what is the cause of these new noises?

Everything in my gut tells me that I am starting all over with a different Engine than it was 10 years ago. Especially with the Head work, 421 and Pontiac cooling mods, "041" Cam and a Remanufactured TH 400 Transmission... I have to expect to jump over current Hurdles and jump through new Hoops, like I had done in the past, some ten years ago until now, it never stops. One change affects something else with Automobiles or so it seems. JMHO

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

The whole point that I was trying to make is, at that time, in those years, this engine had no noise and ran like a raped- ape. So, why should it be different today? I truly think that each and every issue that I am experiencing today is because of all the different changes that I have made over the years. This is not even close to the Engine that I started with, that I tested in, the first four years of my ownership. As I had then, I have to do today and just get past the auto curves thrown at me.

Deep inside the lower end is still the same Crank, Pistons, Rods etc..., strong and waiting to be unleashed like a Tiger in the Pontiac commercial. Unless the accident affected the Engine more than I think, that is why I have a question out to Cliff about the Trans. as we speak. I truly believe that there is nothing wrong with the bottom end of this motor. Unless I caused it, with the Transmission build, causing Thrust toward the Crank, by not having the exact tolerances at the front of the TH 400 that I should have, yet to see that answer, Cliff where are you? Mike out.

The question you have to ask is, Why would any engine change how it's acting and be different today than it was years ago, or even yesterday?
Fact is, there is no certain time frame when an engine starts doing what ever it does. Parts wear out and things can break at any point in time. Trying to apply logic won't fix it and can lead you down the wrong path. A car is a mechanical device, logic doesn't always work.

[steve25]

I wonder if what your hearing wrist pin slap?

At low rpm you will hear a double slap, once when the piston reaches TDC and then again when the cylinder fires, and the sound tends to get so fast with increased rpm that it seams to go away.

To prove this out If you pull the plugs one at a time at idle this noise will go away by 50%, and that’s enough to nail it down to a wrist pin issue.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Instead of doing excessive speeds at 130mph on public highways where there could be other people at risk or chance of being busted by the police & losing your license ... why not just go to a local dragstrip to test & tune the car?

At least that will be safer for you & others but more important it will give you actual times to set a baseline and compare the times/speed of different runs or after different repairs or mods to actually know the performance of the car. Much better than trying to judge performance by how much a 90-130mph run throws you back in the seat... as mentioned, one person's definition of power/speed is totally different than anothers and doesn't really prove anything related to the condition or power of the engine.

First, I have to get this Engine running as well as it did with the old used Cam. With all the new stuff in this Engine it should run like a raped -ape.

This is still a 50-year-old Motor and needs to be driven nicely, I only pushed it in the beginning to see if the former owner rebuilt the Motor. It turns out that he sourced out the Motor and dropped it in the car along with the Trans. and Rearend, all second-hand junk. Good thing I did not overpay for this second-hand project. I am afraid to race this Motor as it is in no condition to be over worked. Instead, I enjoy being stopped everywhere I go and just talk shop.

When I decide to Race it, I will pull this Motor and have it rebuilt and sell it to someone that needs a 1967 428 ci HO Tri-power YK code, to increase the value of their GTO or Firebird or Trans-am, Pontiac big cars etc... Then I can take that cash and get a Race built one, 800- 1000 hp, would be nice. That should move this heavy car and I want to keep the Interior in place. I want to remain Automatic so I have to rebuild my Trans again, no big deal for me anymore, since I have already done the research. I would rebuild the rear also but I want to keep the disk brakes, just upgrade to aftermarket parts. Then I can hit the track and get respectable times too.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

I wonder if what your hearing wrist pin slap?

At low rpm you will hear a double slap, once when the piston reaches TDC and then again when the cylinder fires, and the sound tends to get so fast with increased rpm that it seems to go away.

To prove this out If you pull the plugs one at a time at idle this noise will go away by 50%, and that’s enough to nail it down to a wrist pin issue.

This latest noise is from 1000-2000 RPM, when I am stopped and I rev. it up, I can hear it, then it disappears above that and returns as the RPM falls back to idle, I don't hear it at idle, which in park is 650-700 RPM. Then when I take off, I hear it from 1000-2000 RPM and under load it disapears as I accelerate.

I can't discount the recent Head job that these 670 "D"-port Heads have just received. What kind of a problem could the Head Mechanic have caused to manifest my current noise? Rattling Valve stems, for lack of using Valve Guides, down the Valve stem hole? Just a thought for the people who think that I answer my own queries.

By the way I can try your test once I get it running.

It looks like this weekend the Oil pan is coming off and the bottom end gets an inspection.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The question you have to ask is, why would any engine change how it's acting and be different today than it was years ago, or even yesterday?
The fact is, there is no certain time frame when an engine starts doing whatever it does. Parts wear out and things can break at any point in time. Trying to apply logic won't fix it and can lead you down the wrong path. A car is a mechanical device, logic doesn't always work.

"Like a women"

[tom s]

1967 Tripower?

[Drag Star Le Mans]

Originally Posted by tom s

1967 Tripower?

I saw that also. REALLY??

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Engine noises, hard restart when hot

To be expected when you deep fry engine internals at 400°f with 10W30 engine oil.

Post #433 for reference
Clay

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

We are "not" cooked, if that is what you are thinking. ..

So at what temperature does your oil film fail and sacrificial zinc start getting used up?

Some component in this engine is getting smoking hot for oil temps to reach 400°f under no load conditions.

Clay

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tom s

1967 Tripower?

An interesting topic that we went over years ago, the Tri-power was finished in 1966 and in 1967 came the Quadrajet.

However, During the 1966 Motor development for the 1967 models, how many Tripowers were installed on the 1967 upcoming models (400 ci and 428 ci) and are there any factory records of them?

Before the edict that band Tripowers on everything but the corvette and the Corvair?

My 1967 Pontiac 428 ci HO Motor does not include the Vin. number, just the EUN number, because early models did not come with the Vin numbers yet.

My vehicle has a 1967 Pontiac 428 ci HO with YK code, that is 4bbl, auto. In 1968 I have the date etched into the p.s. Head # 2288, I think going by memory, Feb.- 28-1968, when a Engine Mechanic installed the # 886 Tripower Cam and the 1966 Tripower Intake Manifold and Carbs. on to my Engine. I can now be assured that is when this Mechanic put the Pistons on Backwards except the # 2 Piston is installed forward. Now that the Heads were recently removed, I can see that only Factory work was done there.

It is known and I found out in my research that the Tripower Intake and Dual quad Carbs, # 886 Cam were sold over the counter to the public, but it was the racers that were knowledged of these special parts, from being in the groove, for lack of better words. This is why I believe that my Motor was raced, not only to run shine. Also, recently it has been proven that in those days the racers would purposefully reverse the pistons to gain an edge on the track. Some posts back I inserted the forum member that made us aware of this fact.

Get a hold of John Wallace for more Info., he helped out in the past.

And there is much more info. in my various Threads, if one wants to research this further.

[Kenth]

Unbelievable that the thread starter can keep this thread alive with all the talk about this and that without realizing that engines are not built on such loose foundations as having 7 out of 8 pistons facing the wrong way in the engine.
This is something that anyone with a bit of imagination would fix in the first instance.
Instead, every time there are new comments, there seems to be new nonsense instead of something sensible, like lifting the engine out, taking it apart and putting it back together properly.

Reality show forum style.....

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

So at what temperature does your oil film fail and sacrificial zinc start getting used up?

Some components in this engine are getting smoking hot for oil temps to reach 400° f under no load conditions.

Clay

We found out that the Radiator cap was at fault during the sudden stop on I-95 In south Fl. upon exiting the highway after traveling at 70 MPH for the first time Breaking in the Remanufactured Heads. I had a Thermostat type Radiator cap from Mister Gasket, that the rubber failed, probably because the car sat for over two years. Got to expect these things to happen when Vehicles sit too long. We also had to go through the Carbs. prior to this. etc...

We found that the addition of a HD Temp. Clutch Fan and a three by-pass hole thermostat, made a big difference on cooling this car. The new 421 and Pontiac cooling Mods keep even temp. throughout the Engine. We are keeping the side-kick and Condenser elec. Fans for emergency reasons and if needed when running the AC in a parade or traffic. This Vehicle should not need anything now that the HD Clutch Fan and 180-degree Thermostat control the entire system properly. We don't have the under-hood temps. that we had 10 years ago, when everything we did was a band- aid.

You said:
(1) So, at what temperature does your oil film fail and sacrificial zinc start getting used up?

(2) Some components in this engine are getting smoking hot for oil temps to reach 400° f under no load conditions.


Mikes reply:

(1) My Temp. are "ok" now, where is this coming from, we fixed the problem with a simple radiator cap. The only sacrificial zink I know about is attached to the propeller shaft of our Boat or on an out drive on a Boat. Maybe you can enlighten me with how motor oil works with respect to Zink, I am curious.

(2) 400 degrees measured at the oil pan, do you mean, from my own measurements? Why would the oil temp. ever change under load or not at the pan?

With all four of my oil coolers and the remote oil Filter in the air stream, along with their hoses, I am very happy with the Oil cooling system. The Trans. Oil cooling is just as good.

The Engine and Radiator cooling system is good. We never burnt up anything ever, don't put words in my mouth, you are confused, maybe you're thinking of another person's post?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Kenth

Unbelievable that the thread starter can keep this thread alive with all the talk about this and that without realizing that engines are not built on such loose foundations as having 7 out of 8 pistons facing the wrong way in the engine.
This is something that anyone with a bit of imagination would fix in the first instance.
Instead, every time there are new comments, there seems to be new nonsense instead of something sensible, like lifting the engine out, taking it apart and putting it back together properly.

Reality show forum style.....

In good time this Engine will be built, we will be inspecting the Windage Tray and the Rods orientation this weekend, be patient were getting there. I move in Baby steps, inches not feet, I am disabled and I wish I had a Geannie and I could blink my eyes, but I don't. I move methodically for a reason; it works for me.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Kenth

Unbelievable that the thread starter can keep this thread alive with all the talk about this and that without realizing that engines are not built on such loose foundations as having 7 out of 8 pistons facing the wrong way in the engine.
This is something that anyone with a bit of imagination would fix in the first instance.
Instead, every time there are new comments, there seems to be new nonsense instead of something sensible, like lifting the engine out, taking it apart and putting it back together properly.

Reality show forum style.....

Well said Kenth.

130+ mph? Missed that but pictures or it did not happen

[Cliff R]

+2

IF you have an hour or so of your life to waste watch the video below. You can actually stop after the 6 minute mark. They found absolutely NOTHING with their test, but then found themselves going "against the grain" enough to have to go into theory and start guessing that maybe the engine was "snappier", revved quicker off the corners, blah, blah, blah and blah. Bottom line on their test controlling things as closely as possible no gains whatsover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmjL2nm5qWk

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

I have to ask, why would a Piston being installed backward for as long as it has and under my own torture, that I put on this Engine, endure to 130 mph. Where I found all the internal problems and solved them over time. In the beginning the Rocker stud nut was cracked and I replaced them with 7/16" screw- in studs , because I was bending the Factory Push rods. While there, we installed the Johnson Hydraulic Lifters, a new oil pump and HD Chrome moly Push Rods, had a new timing Gear and dual chain. I drove for about four years testing and tuning.

The # 886 Cam was worn out, but who knew at that time. I had the Tri-power Carbs. completely rebuilt, by us OfCourse, using genuine Rochester parts that would have come in these Carbs., from the factory. We installed the 1/2" spacers under the Rochester's too. We had Air Induction as well and the Carbs. are up-jetted to a 428 ci Motor. So, this combo. at 70 mph, stomp on it, the secondaries come in with the kickdown gear, working at this time, in synchronicity with the stock 13" Torque Converter and I launch from 90 mph to 120 mph. Throwing me back into the seat and then it moves slowly to 130 mph, tops. Now, all of you can tell me that I need to build the bottom end of this Motor, today, now?

I believe that the noises that I experience today, that I am eliminating one at a time successfully, I might add, will not beat me and if they do and all of you were correct, I will have to apologize. I am not afraid to build this Motor, I have the tools and the experience. I would use a Machine shop, where needed, because they have the tools that I don't have.

I tell you this Engine is a monster and I still carry extra weight in the trunk due to the posi-traction W/ four-wheel Disc Brakes.

By the way, when we removed the Cam # 886, years after we flushed the Motor with the ATF, the Cam Bearings did not have sufficient ware on them to be replaced and that is what I base the lower end on today, Crank Bearings, being as well of course. The Cam Bearing in the middle, had one light scratch in it, taken out with light scuff pad. So, we installed the new "041" Cam using the existing Cam Bearings.

FYI- Rebuilt heads do not need "breaking in", there are no parts that need mated together like cam/lifters or rings or bearings.

Can you clarify the timeline of when you installed the new johnson lifters? Based on what youve posted and lost deep in the paragraphs, it looks like you installed the new lifters on the old "worn out" 886 cam, hopefully you broke them into the cam properly... but more importantly you then mention installing the new 041 cam but no mention of new lifters, did you reuse the lifters you installed on the 886 cam?

Are you adjusting each rocker arm or just cranking the nut to 20lb/ft? Did you check the geometry or wear pattern on the valves? With the rebuilt heads and other new valve train parts, teh factory 20/lb/ft may not be whats needed.

Zinc in oil is a combo of zinc/phosphorus, called ZDDP, it is an anti wear additive along with many other additives that are only in engine oil, not ATF, & they are VERY important for high wear areas like cam/lifters, even a few minutes without those additives in the oil, will cause major wear between those surfaces... 30 minutes without any engine oil would be terrible for cam/lifter surfaces & other internals... surprised nobody else mentions that. Thats great you think the bearings were OK visibly, did you measure the clearances of the cam, rod, crank bearings? or just look at them?

Still waiting for a video of the engine noises so we can actually hear whats going on.

[NeighborsComplaint]

Originally Posted by tom s

1967 Tripower?

I guess you guys aren't up on the regional options available on the 1967 GTO, specifically the " 3 Pot Lightnin' " tripower option available only to moonshiners in the Appalachians. Moonshiners were known to love the '67 GTO for it's larger trunk capacity and its understated styling which garnered it little or no attention from the revenuers on the backroads of Appalachia.