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#481
11-12-2023, 05:37 AM
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That being said, Tom has me Timing @ 12 Degrees BTDC. , my Engine could not take that high of an initial without rebuilding the Dist. with the kit that I have in stock. So, for test reasons we tried his test at 9 degrees BTDC. and we hit ping/det (slightly) at 2,000-3000 RPM, that is the curve you see today. We asked Tom whether or not we should try 8 * BTDC. on next trial? We have not received an answer to that question yet. I was told to perform this particular timing test with the Vacuum advance "disconnected". We plug off the Vacuum and use our Vacuum gauge at that hose junction to measure for Inches of Mercury (HG). We first changed our Initial, that is at 6* BTDC. and upped it to 9* BTDC., for the test and then returned the Dist. Timing back to 6* BTDC. after we were done experimenting. |
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#482
11-12-2023, 05:51 AM
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I ran ATF in my Gear Vendors unit as per Factory spec., I tried Synthetic 90 wt lube, but it was too thick and clogged the screen in the unit that they don't show in their little book, that they make you pay for. I found the book on the internet for free.
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#484
11-12-2023, 07:46 AM
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Audible detonation is NEVER a good thing and its rare to experience it with a no-load test.
In all my years of tuning and doing this for a living I've only ran into a couple of engines that pinged at no load without very much timing in them. One was a 1974 Super Duty 455 with dome pistons and XR-276HR cam it. The ONLY time it didn't ping was at idle speed. Had a 460 Ford that I helped the owner rebuild. His original heads were cracked so he was given a set of early 1970's heads. They had "open" combustion chambers in them that I guess are horrible and known for detonation issues. At 9 to 1 compression that engine pinged EVERYWHERE unless you were at idle speed. In order to get it to stop pinging we had to pull a LOT of timing out of it and run only 6 degrees from the VA unit. It was more of a "crutch" than a fix, but one of the many valuable lessons I learned early in my learning curve with these things........
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#485
11-12-2023, 08:16 AM
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[QUOTE=78w72; 6466333] This is not my product, it's AMSOIL's, the link was for information.
Mike said: "I can't see any reason "not" to use Trans., fluid." Did you read the article? Ans. Finally, yes, I did! MIKE SAID: HERE IS THAT ARTICLE, READ DOWN SOME BELOW! Quote of the day by me: "Mike would not sell you on an idea unless he used that idea himself and found it to work". You said: It gives about 4 or 5 rather important reasons to "NOT" use it. Amsoil does not back your technique, they mentioned it was a DIY thing and there are better products to use. Seafoam used the right way is better than ATF IMO. For the majority of DIY guys that did/do use ATF as a cleaner, its usually 1-2 qts added to oil, not 100% ATF, there are no lubrication properties in ATF like an engine oil to protect the internals of the engine, that would be the worst thing for any engine regardless of age, but if that's how you insist doing it... carry on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What does the PY forum say: Vote ATF for Mike or Amsoil for 78w72. Only one vote per member, don't forget to read the small print...HA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mikes reply: The AMSOIL cost: $14.69/pt x 16 pt (2gl) = $235.04, if you use it "FULL Strength" as Mike is. Once upon a time, around the Valve Stem debate, you accused me of believing in what the manufacturer of their product thought about their own product, "was not true and that I bought into their hype". You're doing that now by thinking that your Amsoil product will clean Mikes motor better than Mike using (2 gal) of ATF that costs: $13 x 2 = $26 Bucks'. I propose this: "if we were to clean both your and my Motors, using our preferred products and methods, both Motors will be equally as clean at the end of the day and I can do it for less money. There is absolutely no bad reason to use (2 gal) of ATF" full strength", while running in an Engine like a Pontiac 428 ci HO. It won't hurt any of the internal parts of an Engine over one half-hours' time. This has been tested on several Motors by Mike and I can attest to this as being Factual and in a court of law I would attest to this statement... ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION FLUSH $14.69/16 oz. Bottle AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush (FLSH) helps restore fuel economy, increase operating efficiency and reduce emissions in gasoline and diesel engines, and automatic transmissions. Its potent, detergent-based formula cleans sludge and deposit build-up, promoting reduced oil consumption. AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush is safe on parts and can be easily disposed of with waste oil. Restores Vehicles to Like-New New engines and transmissions run more efficiently, but over time they gather harmful deposits that cause power and performance loss. Stop-and-go driving, prolonged idling, short trips that do not allow the engine to reach full operating temperature, towing, the ingestion of air-borne dirt, fuel dilution, water condensation and oxidized oil all can promote sludge build-up in motor oil and transmission fluid. As it settles, sludge clogs narrow oil passages, restricting oil flow to vital parts, especially the upper valve train area. In transmissions, deposits can form on clutch plates, causing hesitation and erratic shifting. Ultimately clutch glazing can set in, reducing the life of the transmission. Deposits in engines and transmissions can accelerate wear, causing power loss and increased fuel consumption. Prepares engines and transmissions for new oil Removes deposits and sludge for improved efficiency, fuel economy and lower emissions Prolongs equipment life Detergent-based formula is environmentally friendly Compatible with seals and gaskets One-treatment results Easily disposed of with waste oil AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush Benefits Unlike many flush products, AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush features a multi-use formulation that dissolves and disperses sludge, varnish and deposits in both engines and automatic transmissions. Due to its detergent-based formulation, it can be easily disposed of with waste oil, making it more user-friendly. Its advanced formula of light base oil technology, powerful detergents and dispersants provides safe cleaning action. AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush is compatible with both petroleum and synthetic oils, preparing poorly maintained equipment for installation of new oil. It represents the first step toward restoring neglected equipment to top-notch performance. AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush provides the following benefits in only one treatment: Gasoline and Diesel Engines Helps loosen sticky valves and rings, minimizing blow-by and reducing emissions Helps quiet lifter noise Promotes lower operating temperatures through sludge removal Easy disposal Automatic Transmissions Cleans deposits in oil cooler and ports Helps unclog fluid passages Cleans deposits and varnish from clutch plates, helping improve efficiency Promotes smoother operation and transmission life through reduced shift delay Applications AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush is recommended for diesel and gasoline engines, and automatic transmissions. Do not use it in differentials. Directions for Use Though it works in one treatment, AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush is safe enough to be used at every oil change. If using a flushing machine, follow the manufacturer's recommendation. Otherwise, use the following guidelines: Engine: Add entire bottle of AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush to engine oil fill port. Idle the engine for 10-15 minutes, then immediately drain the oil. Ensure enough time for the system to completely drain. Remove and replace the engine oil filter. Refill engine with new engine oil in the viscosity grade recommended by the manufacturer. Transmission: Engage emergency brake. Add the entire bottle of AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush to transmission oil fill port. Idle for 10-15 minutes; shift through drive and reverse. Do NOT place vehicles under heavy load. Drain entire transmission and torque converter of fluid. FILTER MUST BE CHANGED prior to refilling with new transmission fluid. NOTE: It is not recommended to flush transmissions that do not have a removable pan or access to the transmission filter. Automatic transmission clutch plates pre-cleanup. (above) Automatic transmission clutch plates pre-cleanup. Varnish and glazing is heavy on some of the plates. Automatic transmission clutch plates after cleanup. (above) Automatic transmission clutch plates after cleanup with AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush reveal lighter glazing and varnish. Cylinder head pre-cleanup. (above) Cylinder head pre-cleanup. Note the sludge deposits on and around the valve springs and push rod openings. Cylinder head after cleanup with AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush. (above) Cylinder head after cleanup with AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush. The valve springs and push rod openings are noticeably cleaner, with fewer sludge deposits. The manufacturer's stamping is more easily seen. AMSOIL P.i.® Gasoline Additive or Diesel All-in-One for $5 with $49 Order. Order Now and use code: 5PI for AMSOIL P.i.® or code 5DX for Diesel All-in-One. *Exclusions apply. Preferred Customers Earn Double Rewards With Every $100 You Spend. Not a Preferred Customer? Join Today. *Exclusive offer for Preferred Customers. Exclusions apply. ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION FLUSH Product code : FLSHCN-EA Prepares Engines and Transmissions for New Oil Engineered for both gasoline and diesel engines and automatic transmissions. It helps improve operating efficiency, increase fuel economy and reduce emissions. Current price: $14.69/16 oz. Bottle You said: "Did you read the article?? It gives about 4 or 5 rather important reasons to NOT use it." Mikes reply: PLEASE LIST THE 5 REASONS ABOVE THAT HAVE AMSOIL SAYING "DONT USE ATF". Note: I would bet that the main ingredient in their product is petroleum distillates, an active ingredient in ATF. Note: The Amsoil product uses: "Due to its detergent-based formulation, it can be easily disposed of with waste oil, making it more user-friendly. Its advanced formula of light base oil technology, powerful detergents and dispersants provides safe cleaning action" (1) Detergent-based formulation. (2) Avanced formula of light base oil technology. (3) Powerful detergents and dispersants. (4) Detergent-based formula cleans sludge and deposit build-up. Note: All of these ingredients are in Trans. fluid, just in different quantities. IMO Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-12-2023 at 09:15 AM. |
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#486
11-12-2023, 09:21 AM
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As a side note,
Ford 460 non hp heads have very poor exh ports, the 1.50” exh valve in a SBC 283 head can just about match it. If you can’t get the remaining heat out that was used to make power at whatever rpm, even near idle speed then your in for tuning issues. There poor low rpm velocity made for pooled up fuel in the chambers that would light off late after the main burn had started . The only way tuning gets around this problem is by turning that 460 cid motor into something that can at best only perform like a 351 cid motor!
__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! Last edited by steve25; 11-12-2023 at 09:28 AM. |
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#487
11-12-2023, 09:52 AM
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Tom, it would be nice if you walked me through this timing carefully, I don't want too many different inputs. That is if you have the time. above is what I think you said? Mike out. P.S. I can't be guessing at this time. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-12-2023 at 10:11 AM. |
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#488
11-12-2023, 10:00 AM
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#489
11-12-2023, 10:01 AM
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i would want the initial and total to be where you want them to be. Mechanical needs to be limited by narrowing the slot. I think total with vacuum advance usually ends up near 50btdc.
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1968 Firebird 400 RAII M21, 3.31 12 bolt, Mayfair Maize. 1977 Trans Am W72 400, TH350, 3.23 T Top Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't. Bill Nye. |
| The Following User Says Thank You to TedRamAirII For This Useful Post: | ||
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#490
11-12-2023, 10:20 AM
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#493
11-12-2023, 10:43 AM
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WOW! That was a lot of typing, yet completely confused or misuunderstoood what amsoil says in the article. They do NOT say to use it to fill the engine, so the math comparing the 2 is completely irrelevant, do you actually think youre supposed to fill the engine with it??? Read the directions on the bottle, slowly, 2 or 3 times in order to understand it, it says to add 1 bottle to 4-5qts of oil & run a short time.
Again, Amsoil explains the reason why using ATF is not ideal compared to modern engine flushes designed for that purpose. ATF might be 10weight viscosity... but it has ZERO additives for engine wear that oil has, therefore causing more wear when you use 100% ATF no matter how short its ran for, I also never said you run the engine with it all the time, and nobody is saying the engine will instantly blow up, but its not a good idea to use 100% ATF in an engine. I dont need to rebuild a trans to know the difference between auto trans bearings & engine bearings. There is a LOT more to protecting engine internals than just keeping the crank/bearings suspended with a film of oil, bet the cam/lifters really love PURE ATF in the engine!  Since you still dont understand the reasons amsoil explains that using ATF is not an ideal way to clean an engine, even when diluted let alone full strength, I will copy & paste it for you... no need to reply anymore since you obviously cant get past your "opinion" of how to do things even when a reputable lubrication company explains it very clearly. Transmission Fluid In Oil Reduces Cleaning Power In most cases, adding automatic transmission fluid to motor oil reduces cleaning power. That’s because the detergency of ATF is less than motor oil. Why is that? ATF is exposed to lower levels of combustion byproducts and contaminants than motor oil, so it is formulated with reduced detergency. Instead, ATFs have elevated levels of friction modifiers and other additives that help protect gears and clutches. Transmission Fluid In Oil Reduces Wear Protection Second, adding ATF alters the motor oil formulation and reduces its effectiveness. A good motor oil is a fine balance of base oils and additives designed to fight wear, reduce friction, prevent deposits and slowly dissolve accumulated sludge. The cleaning power of motor oil is designed to work gradually over subsequent oil changes and not necessarily all at once. Adding a foreign substance to the oil disrupts the formulated chemistry, negatively impacting wear protection, detergency and more. Changes Motor Oil Viscosity Finally, ATF can alter the viscosity of the oil, reducing wear protection. Viscosity is the oil’s most important property, influencing wear protection and fuel efficiency. Increasing or decreasing viscosity by adding a little transmission fluid in oil to clean sludge can lead to increased engine wear. Use An Engine Flush Instead If you want effective sludge removal and cleaning power, we recommend using AMSOIL Engine & Transmission Flush. It helps to restore fuel economy, increase operating efficiency and reduce emissions in gasoline and diesel engines, and automatic transmissions. Its potent, detergent-based formula cleans sludge and deposit build-up. |
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#494
11-12-2023, 10:48 AM
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The first thing I would like to know if you have not checked it yet and posted the results of such yet for us ( and for your records) would be what your hot cranking compression readings are.
Just for the record this is done with the Dizzy unpowered so it can’t throw a spark, all the plugs out and the carb jammed wide open. Has this been posted already? Forgive me but I do not want to look back for it.
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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
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#495
11-12-2023, 11:09 AM
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#496
11-12-2023, 11:57 AM
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#497
11-12-2023, 12:26 PM
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A little information about an ill fated Ford engine build causes confusion here? You are kidding right?
We're right in the middle of messing with the distributor (that was probably better suited for your needs BEFORE you tried getting all the advance in early in the RPM range) tune and trying to find out what the engine will tolerate for octane, etc, and you put up a WAY too long completely useless and unrelated thread about the flushing engines using fluid that was designed to be used in hydraulic systems......SERIOUSLY? If I ready it correctly we're now back to running upwards of 200 something degrees and stalling out in traffic requiring a 15 minute cool down period before the engine could be restarted, AND the entire time your companion is having to direct traffic around you. Talk about "confused", I'm not getting any of it, especially the part about the temps showing well over 200 degrees but the gauge can't be trusted because you believe it's about 30 degrees off? Not to mention you are back to wanting to move the cam again? Not for nothing but I"ve never seen a four "notch" timing chain set. Have seen three (they are all pieces of bovine excrement) and the much better 9 keyway variety with heat treated billet sprockets, but a "four way" type, who made it?.........
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
| The Following User Says Thank You to Cliff R For This Useful Post: | ||
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#498
11-12-2023, 02:10 PM
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Mike Please take note, that the bottom of this page is mixing the trans. Fluid to the oil and that is not what I do, thus there is no proof but that the manufacturer of this Amsoil Motor flush is just selling you their product, read it again for yourself. You Since you still don't understand the reasons Amsoil explains that using ATF is not an ideal way to clean an engine, even when diluted let alone full strength. Mike Mike understands he just has a different opinion. You Transmission Fluid in Oil Reduces... You Transmission Fluid in Oil Reduces Wear Protection Second, adding ATF alters the motor oil formulation and reduces its effectiveness. You Adding a foreign substance to the oil disrupts the formulated chemistry, negatively impacting wear protection, detergency and more...LIKE ATF ? You Changes Motor Oil Viscosity Finally, ATF can alter the viscosity of the oil, reducing wear protection. You ... Decreasing viscosity by adding a little transmission fluid in oil to clean sludge can lead to increased engine wear. You Use An Engine Flush Instead. If you want effective sludge removal and cleaning power, we recommend using AMSOIL Engine & Transmission Flush. It helps to restore fuel economy, increase operating efficiency and reduce emissions in gasoline and diesel engines, and automatic transmissions. Its potent, detergent-based formula cleans sludge and deposit build-up. FROM ABOVE "It's potent, detergent-based formula cleans sludge and deposit build-up". Mikes reply: Since Amsoil claims to clean and I claim that Transmission fluid cleans, the only thing that the Amsoil can really do is get rid of the sludge in an Engine and because of that they claim the rest is Bull, because once it has cleaned the inside of the Block, none remains in the Block to make any such claims of say better milage, etc... Mike believes that all the above claims by Amsoil say mix Trans. with oil this is what happens... I do not mix Trans. fluid to the oil, do I? I claim to remove the motor oil from the Block by draining it and remove the filter, install a new filter with 2 gal of ATF and run that for .5 hour. Now you read your own products message carefully please. You should ask yourself why would the DIY person be able to mix their product with ATF at any time if the chemicals were incompatible and would hurt the outcome or defeat the purpose for which the product was intended. It's all right there in Black and white, Amsoil is Hypocritical and they don't have to be, I am sure their products work, there just playing on our stupidity as Comsumers as if we can't read. In closing please don't ever say that Mike doesn't understand something, I always tell the forum that I don't understand by asking a question to begin with. RECAP: When you drain the Amsoil mixture out of the Block for example, after mixing it with dirty motor oil or a mixture of one 16oz bottle of their product to some Trans. fluid, what is left in the Block but a clean ass Engine? So, what is going to reduce the Emissions and all the wonderful things they say their product does? Ans: it leaves a clean Motor. Mikes (Trans. fluid cleaning method) does the same thing without the sales pitch and it will not hurt the Engine and this is a tested truth and proven by the best, ME. We will add this to the Pontiac Mod. In the archives with the Pontiac and 421 cooling Mods and the Pontiac water Pump Mod, all of which I learned here on this forum. JMO P.S. My roommate just said: They add two 16 oz bottles of Amsoil and mix it with dirty oil, then mix some Trans. fluid all together, run the engine and drain. How could that work better than your method, mike? Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 11-12-2023 at 02:50 PM. |
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#499
11-12-2023, 02:22 PM
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Not Surprised About Any Of It
Engine noises, hard restart when hot
To be expected when you deep fry engine internals at 400°f with 10W30 engine oil. Post #433 for reference Clay |
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