[KevinDush]

In the new Car Craft (June 2000) there is an article on a '67 Mustang (cover article) that runs 11.80's, 428 CJ, blah blah blah, but the point is the comment about the CR and running on pump gas. Although I'm sure that it can be done from what I've read, you'd certainly have to know what you were doing, but this guy attributes it to "the miracle of space-age ceramic coatings." It goes on to say that the tops of the pistons, valves, inside the exhaust ports, all over the inside of the intake, etc. He says that it is good for an extra point and a half of CR than pump gas could usually handle. BTW, he says it's a 10.5:1 CR. Does this really work and if so how? Have any of you considered this, seems like a good idea, espescially for street cars. Any idea how expensive it is and/or who can do it?

Thanks,
Kevin F. Dush
kevin@fizziwigs.com

[KevinDush]

In the new Car Craft (June 2000) there is an article on a '67 Mustang (cover article) that runs 11.80's, 428 CJ, blah blah blah, but the point is the comment about the CR and running on pump gas. Although I'm sure that it can be done from what I've read, you'd certainly have to know what you were doing, but this guy attributes it to "the miracle of space-age ceramic coatings." It goes on to say that the tops of the pistons, valves, inside the exhaust ports, all over the inside of the intake, etc. He says that it is good for an extra point and a half of CR than pump gas could usually handle. BTW, he says it's a 10.5:1 CR. Does this really work and if so how? Have any of you considered this, seems like a good idea, espescially for street cars. Any idea how expensive it is and/or who can do it?

Thanks,
Kevin F. Dush
kevin@fizziwigs.com

[M.Sides]

Oh those Ford guys. If you look back at the article it mentions that he is still running race gas while he 'dials in the motor'. To me this says that the effects of the coatings have yet to be proven (unless they used 93 octane while it was on the dyno). Definately interesting if indeed it does work.

[Steve C.]

I know that coatings are being used to help combat the effects of NOS. The strength of a coated piston is increased substantially by virtue of the lower operating temperature. When it comes to coatings, some of the heavy hitters in the industry are:
Swain Tech Coatings at 716-889-2786, Polydine Performance Coatings at 713-694-3296 (ask for Omar) and Lovatt Technology at 213-946-6679. Also, seek a back issue of the Jan 2000 issue of Hot Rod Magazine and read the article related directly to the topic.

[Scott Misus]

A friend who runs a 670" nitrous Pro Mod car has tried it and has gained nothing. Steve is the only professional racer that I know of, and I can count on him for honest feedback, good or bad. He also increased the stroke of his crank to go from 638 to 670" and also gained nothing. When I asked him why he'd spend $3500 on a crank with unknown benefits, he replied "You've gotta try stuff."

However, the things to consider are that he tears down and replaces pistons several times per year and replaces the rods after 40 runs. Maybe in a motor where maintenance intervals are not so close, we'd see a greater benefit. Perhaps, also, those of us with street-only cars would enjoy the "advertised" benefits more.

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"How could I have been so mistaken as to have trusted the experts?...." --JFK, after the Bay of Pigs invasion

[TinInjun]

I wouldn't waste the time or the money using ceramic coatings. If they were useful, the aviation turbine engine manufactures would be using them, they arent. They have tried using them but found no advantages to using ceramic coating. These engines see 800 degrees C all the time. Plus why add more weight to the reciprocating assy. You want it as light as possible.

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"Run wild with an Indian, not with the crowd in a Chevy"
Check out my restoration at http://members.aol.com/jetmech15/gto

[Scott Misus]

Good point about weight, Tin. I read in National Dragster a few years back that Funny Car teams were experimenting with new paints because they found that their existing paint weighed about 40 lbs., or close to what the whole carbon fiber body weighed!

[Steve C.]

Update.
I brought up the subject in another forum recently and this prompted me to make a phone call to Polymer Dynamics in Houston (713-694-3296). According to the president Carl Benton their Polydyne Performance Coatings are used on automotive parts but he stated the mainstay of their business is in the field of turbine engines. Possibly this is in conjunction with a area unrelated to TinInjun. We discussed their new synthetic polymer ceramic coating for use on piston tops as commonly used for a protective coating related to nitrous use and also for performance gains. Relating to performance gains, he stated they are seeing about a 10 hp average increase and on up towards 17-18 hp on the "pro stock" type engines. They find less timing is required and it allows more fuel to be burned (or was it more efficient burn?). They have two different coatings, the newer and better of the two is called HS Gold and the cost is $35 per piston (the other is $29). Both are applied as a very thin lightweight coating, only about 1 1/2 thousands thick on the dome itself (can't remember what he said the skirt thickness was). As a side note, during my conversation I mentioned the subject of using ceramic coatings to aid in the ability to run additional compression as Keven brought up for the subject of this post, he had no specific knowledge concerning the basis for that claim. However as I mentioned there are others out there in the field, Swain Tech Coatings being one of the larger ones.
David Vizard claims that numerous dyno tests of all-out racing engines equipped with coated pistons have shown that power increases of between 4 percent to 8 percent are possible. He states that coatings can be successfully used on any engine, street or all-out race. However, he made sure to point out that you must decide if such coatings are cost-effective for the application.

[This message has been edited by Steve Coombes (edited 08-22-2000).]

[Gach]

David Vizard, was he one of those experts in the OJ Simson case. The nitrous guys use this coating, and probably the Pro Stock guys. A few of the hard core Pontiac racers also use it, but I can't say for sure weather or not it really produces that much more hp. I think you'd have to test the motor with it, then with out it, to really know if there's any gains.

[Steve C.]

Gach....
David Vizard is a engineer, a race car driver and builder, an inventor...and over the years has had numerious technical articles published in various automotive magazines and has had many books published relating to the performance industry. He has access to extensive machine-shop facilities, hundreds of specialized tools, and most importantlly, a dyno and flowbench. He is the guy that would dyno the same engine with and without coated pistons to determine if there was an obvious improvement. He is also a nice fellow, I had the opportunity to have lunch with him after reviewing a port on one of my cylinder heads on his flowbench. Good bench racing that day!

[Gach]

Steve, calm down it was suppose to be a joke. Sounds like your quit impress with David Lizard, what kind of cars dose he race, and build ?

[Steve C.]

Hey Gach, I'm calm [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Just wanted to give you an insite as to who he is. Impressed?...sure, I enjoy interacting with anyone that takes the time to research and report on the various products, capabilities, methods, etc. Doesn't mean they are always correct and you have to agree... for example, in my involvement with him he felt that the piticular port tested was very good. However it turned out that upon further testing, by others, that the heads were actually very inconsistant from port-to-port and was troubled with very bad turbulence.
I think he built and raced sports cars... hey that's not all bad, I used to race a Triumph TR4A !
Now on to the subject at hand..... any feed back out there on coatings ?

[Gach]

Steve, Pontiac Dude uses coated pistons, but can't really say weather or not they really work. I think their advantage is more for heat, allot of the nitrous guys use them, but I read on one of the nitrous boards, that it doesn't really work, can't remember which board, it was a statement made buy the
owner of the nitrous company. Another interesting thing he said was by accident they tested with a non nitrous cam, and found it to make more hp, once they change to a nitrous cam. Dude are you listing, I'll have to find that topic, anyway he gave a number of this guy who is suppose to really know his stuff about picking cams, so I gave him a call, he was very interesting to talk to. I know what your saying I like picking people's brian's too.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Gach, you got me smiling on you first reply.
Good sense of the humor.

Beside, all of you experts know that Pontiac TIN-PLATED the tops of our 350, 400, and OHC-6 pistons.

Oh, and the Valve faces had Aluminum flash, with chrome-plated stems..but now I digress.



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"his peg-leg got woodworm , and broke into three"--G. Baker

[Half-Inch Stud]

Gach,
You're right again - its an issue of heat.
YOu could follow the Grumpy Jenkins developements "The Chevy Racing Engine", go to the Piston topic, and see that the hotter engine temperature makes the highest HP and the fastest times. Thus, you can coat your pistons to reflect the IR heat back into the mixture or do as he recommends and turn your electric water pump off after the burnout. 200-204F is right there at percolating for iron heads, while 220F was OK for aluminum heads.


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"his peg-leg got woodworm , and broke into three"--G. Baker

[Half-Inch Stud]

I got here first : The Dude is done listing. Think he turned over.

[SLOW 77]

I don't remember who told me this but there is a mom and son ProMod team and they where not profesionally sponsored for a year or something like that. Well to make a long story short they burnt through sets of pistons all the time, then used the coated pistons and they actually lasted and used them only,but I don't remember how long or what not. Any engine should pick up a little from that dry film coating on the skirts if you didn't get the tops of the pistons done with the thermal coating. Anyway you look at it, it is around 20-50$ per piston, that is some big bucks.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I coat the tops of my pistons myself use Techline coatings. Does it work? You decide. I run gobs of NOS. and also experimenting with the Ati Procharger thru the carb. I have had my engine apart 4 times to check for wear. Each time the pistons look like new. Temps have been as high as 1590/1650 range numerous times while trying to get a handle on the Procharger. When stepping up the juice and getting the fuel pressure right with the NOS have had the EGT's in the 1495/1525 range. Currently running in the 1425/1450 range which seems to make the most power. The spark plugs show no signs of detonation or aluminum flakes. So far. I have over 100 documented NOS passes of 250 or greater,(currently 350 hp)on this motor and also the Procharger, and shouldn't brag, as when you do you know what happens, KABOOM!, but it doesn't owe me a dime. Do I believe in coating pistons, YES. Does it work? I don't know, but I won't build a NOS or blower engine without doing it as I'm satisfied with my own personal observations. BTW: these are the JE/SRP out of the box pistons, not some special NOS material type of piston. I also teflon coat my own piston sides and main & rod brgs. So far the only thing replaced are the rings(had to rehone/blown head gasket and water in 4 cylinders, still has water marks and #2 main brg. really only the #2 one seems to give me a problem. Same rod brgs. Anything that can help deflect heat off the piston to the exhaust port has to work as long as it doesn't take the heat out of the chamber while making horsepower. Same goes for teflon for scuff resistance on piston skirts and bearings. Another subject for another time. I also believe in Synthetic oils that saved an engine too. Later, How's that "1/2 inch stud" & Gach for a minor longwinded statement. This has been another minor novel by PONTIAC DUDE.
http://PontiacPower.cc

[This message has been edited by PONTIAC DUDE (edited 08-23-2000).]

[Scott Misus]

The dude WAS listing, but it appears as though he's righted again.

[Chambers]

I also have had good results with the tech-line coatings. I think the basis of the various type of coatings is not for HP but rather for durability factors such as not burning holes in pistons. I tore down a motor that had experienced oil starvation and had dry film lubricant coated bearings and even though it hammered the bearings briefly no damage was found on the crank or rods. I think this HP issue debate is getting off track. Just my 2 cents.